King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[deep6ing]

What you propose has been the system for years already. It didn't work, despite sporadic enforcement. Which is why they are finally trying something different - something they started discussing in detail around 2008 or 2009.

And it's hugely successful.

It wasn't really the system... There are none of these signs over by me (Charlotte) and I only learned about it on this forum. It was totally unenforced. I took a class at George Brown this fall. One day I rode the streetcar there in minutes... Spadina to Sherbourne. Was amazing. That was at 6pm too. I see the need for changes. But the changes should only be limited to what will have maximum impact... no overreach. I always hear about 65,000 riders... how many of those are after 7pm?

I'm sure if you polled people that live in the areas where the businesses are affected, you would find most want common sense adjustments. Many of these restaurants... Rodney's, Buca, are city-wide desinations. They are icons. People drive from all over the GTA to go to them. If Rodney's decamps to Yonge and Eglinton, that will be a massive failure for the city. Restaurant demand is extremely elastic... you can easily pick another option. The city should have consulted much more with the affected communities and used a scalpel not a sledgehammer. You can achieve the results minus the costs... but all I see is two sides dug in. Believe me, if Rodney's decamps... the Mayor will be absolutely sick to his stomach.

 

[drum118]

St. Clair West's businesses have a warning for King Street

 

[nfitz]

It wasn't really the system... There are none of these signs over by me (Charlotte) and I only learned about it on this forum.

There aren't now; they took down the ones west of Jarvis in November for the pilot. I just dropped into Streetvew at Charlotte and King, and you can see one to the west, past Blue Jays Way. To the east there is one between Spadina and Charlotte. You really drove down this street and didn't see any? They did try enforcing. Doesn't work even then - you are forced into the middle lane too often, with all sorts of things going on, and making turns.

One day I rode the streetcar there in minutes... Spadina to Sherbourne. Was amazing. That was at 6pm too.

So counter-peak after the end of rush hour. Try it at 3 AM! You wouldn't believe it. Even 9 AM on a Sunday morning is impressive.

But yes, at times it was very good - but there needs to be more times, and consistency. 6 pm might be great ofr that, but try 9 pm on a Thursday. Or Saturday. It's a nightmare, even worse than rush-hour.

I see the need for changes. But the changes should only be limited to what will have maximum impact... no overreach. I always hear about 65,000 riders... how many of those are after 7pm?

Less of course - but less cars too - this is the time that Adelaide and Richmond work the best. What would ever posses one to drive down King even before - and now you can't overtake streetcars, even if you do let cars drive through intersections.

I'm sure if you polled people that live in the areas where the businesses are affected, you would find most want common sense adjustments.

Really - but they are the ones who are most ecstatic about the improved transit, based on the people I've talked to. It's not like they are driving along King to go to work - or to these locales.

Many of these restaurants... Rodney's, Buca, are city-wide desinations. They are icons. People drive from all over the GTA to go to them. If Rodney's decamps to Yonge and Eglinton, that will be a massive failure for the city.

I asked above, but you didn't answer. How is this even impacting Buca? Rodney's is near Yonge/Spadina? Wouldn't almost everyone drive there down Spadina, or up from the Gardiner - if these are city-wide. Or down the DVP/Richmond. Which puts you at Richmond past Spadina, which as I already mentioned above, was always an easy place to find a parking spot.

Yonge & Eglinton?!? That's always been a nightmare to drive to - I'd much sooner drive to near Spadina and King, even now. I find it even harder to find street parking around there, then the King/Spadina area (as long as one is south of Kensington - which is far harder to find a spot).

And have you driven there recently!?!Believe me, if Rodney's decamps... the Mayor will be absolutely sick to his stomach.

The mayor lives near Yonge/Bloor station (well closer to St. George). He could probably get to Eglinton/Yonge there quicker on the subway than driving! Is Rodney's complaining?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No surprise there, the plan always was to do both King and Queen. Presumably it was easier to just pilot one

Whos plan was this? I've never heard that before

 

[PinkLucy]

I haven't heard either Rodney's or Buca complaining. Buca was the flavour of the month for a while, I'm not sure that it's still such a go-to place. Everyone I know who has gone there has walked .... because they live in the area.

 

[narduch]

I haven't heard either Rodney's or Buca complaining. Buca was the flavour of the month for a while, I'm not sure that it's still such a go-to place. Everyone I know who has gone there has walked .... because they live in the area.

Rob Gentile, the chef from Buca was tweeting complaints about the pilot.

 

[PinkLucy]

Ah ok, I missed that. Perhaps it's simply that Buca's time has come and gone; that happens in the restaurant world. Or maybe that tiny little sign just isn't attracting customers. If someone hadn't told me where it was, I would have walked past -- in fact I did, many times. Personally I found it over-hyped and over-rated and haven't had any interest in returning.

 

[gweed123]

Does it make sense to add a third track to streetcar lines in order to allow for passing/express cars? (ignoring the fact that this would require a complete rebuild of the streetcar tracks)

If you're rebuilding it anyway, might as well 4-track it, assuming you're going full transit mall. A 4-tracked King St would go a long way towards reducing the need for a DRL West (though obviously that would still be preferable). The platform setup may be a bit complicated though, since you still only have doors that open on the right. Would be much easier if the TTC had streetcars that had doors on both sides, in order to enable island platforms.

 

[steveintoronto]

If you're rebuilding it anyway, might as well 4-track it, assuming you're going full transit mall. A 4-tracked King St would go a long way towards reducing the need for a DRL West (though obviously that would still be preferable). The platform setup may be a bit complicated though, since you still only have doors that open on the right. Would be much easier if the TTC had streetcars that had doors on both sides, in order to enable island platforms.

Yes! This of course would be post pilot. The real challenge comes at the streetcar intersections. as to take all four tracks across each would require massive and complete rebuilding of them.

What I propose is leaving the present tracks in place, but between intersecting track junctions, *local* (stopping) tracks are in the curb lane, and merge into the present 'through' (or express) lanes, such that the local tracks don't alter the crossovers, and once past the intersection, the local tracks verge off from the express ones again.

This would allow the stopping cars to run slower without fouling the express tracks. It would also mean that passengers would board from the present sidewalks (the curbs slightly further into present roadway).

This would allow express through 'trains' to travel at a higher speed and pass the locals that are stopped. Would it satisfy the need for a subway? Not quite, but would go a long way to building on the demonstrated though incremental success now starting to show.

Needless to say, pedestrian crossing access from one side of the road to the other would have to be corralled, or overhead bridges/decks built that could also host restaurants and second floor building access.

Expensive? Compared to building a subway, it would be a tiny fraction to achieve much of the same outcome.

 

[deep6ing]

Ah ok, I missed that. Perhaps it's simply that Buca's time has come and gone; that happens in the restaurant world. Or maybe that tiny little sign just isn't attracting customers. If someone hadn't told me where it was, I would have walked past -- in fact I did, many times. Personally I found it over-hyped and over-rated and haven't had any interest in returning.

It's #16 of the Top 100 Restaurants in Canada and the same chef also has #7, Buca Yorkville.

 

[deep6ing]

I haven't heard either Rodney's or Buca complaining. Buca was the flavour of the month for a while, I'm not sure that it's still such a go-to place. Everyone I know who has gone there has walked .... because they live in the area.

Check out Rodney's on Twitter... they have been complaining since it was launched. A great Toronto institution and one of the original businesses that drew people down to this part of the city.

 

[PinkLucy]

How a restaurant is rated depends who you ask. There are three Kegs in the top 20 on Trip Advisor. As for Buca being #16 on some list, like I said -- over-hyped and over-rated. If they or Rodneys or even Fred's are so wonderful, people will get there with or without the King Pilot. If business is declining, I suspect it has more to do with the theatre being dark longer than usual this past Fall season or the fact that they're resting on their laurels. Having lived in that area of the city for many years, I can tell you that there are many wonderful restaurants off the typical tourist path that are worth discovering. As for being a great institution, Rodney's was established in 1987. My kids are older than that. The King Edward is an institution, and it has had its ups and downs. To become, and remain, an institution, a business has to work for it, especially in a thriving area of downtown which has become increasingly residential. These businesses can no longer rely on the suburban crowd coming downtown on a Friday night -- they need to meet the needs of locals too. As a local, I'm much happier navigating King now than I was before -- it's safer as a pedestrian, and transit moves better. But then again, I don't drive downtown because that's mostly unnecessary when you live there.

 

[deep6ing]

How a restaurant is rated depends who you ask. There are three Kegs in the top 20 on Trip Advisor. As for Buca being #16 on some list, like I said -- over-hyped and over-rated.

I think Canada's Top 100 is pretty thorough... http://canadas100best.com/judges/. Sorry you didn't like it. Can't say I loved it but I do love Bar Buca.

I think this pilot is going to be adjusted to 7pm soon... It's a sensible compromise and I don't think the Mayor is an ideologue.

 

[ADRM]

I think Canada's Top 100 is pretty thorough... http://canadas100best.com/judges/. Sorry you didn't like it. Can't say I loved it but I do love Bar Buca.

I think this pilot is going to be adjusted to 7pm soon... It's a sensible compromise and I don't think the Mayor is an ideologue.

I don't think that's remotely sensible; it's giving the middle finger to any commuter who goes home a little bit later and to anyone who actually wants to frequent a business any evening.

It's just pandering to entitled motorists and whiny business owners.

 

[Streety McCarface]

no street in downtown should exceed 4 general traffic lanes. looking at u university... lets start by reducing lanes on streets that already have better transit options in the corridor (yonge and later on queen). also we should be considering removing some streetcar lines and seeing if articulated busses would serve the users of the street better (im thinking of dundas, bathurst and college mainly the mixed traffic routes). i have nothing against streetcars but we should be looking at other options for sure. king no question needs the extra capacity offered by LFLRVs but i think some routes could live without it

No, no, no. It makes absolutely no sense to remove streetcars from Dundas, Bathurst, or College and replace them with Articulated Buses just because they're not as crowded as King. Do you know how many people use each of those? College carries 39601 passengers per day, Dundas carries 32410 passengers per day. Queen carries 43464 passengers per day, but by km, it carries the least number of passengers per km on its line. The 505 is the most crowded surface route as is, and without the 511 (21433 passengers per day), the CNE would be a mess. Also, articulated buses downtown would be next to impossible on all these routes. Let it also be known, the Eglinton East bus carries 30,000 passengers per day, less than the 506 and 505. Based on how many buses pop up on that route, even considering moving the 511, 506 and 505 to buses is absurd.