King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[micheal_can]

Seeing how wonderfully this project is working out, it should be replicated on all streetcar lines.

There would be a revolt!!
Imagine no parking on Queen or Kingston Rd?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Everyone is King: Design Build Competition

 

[lead82]

This is great but they need to do something in the winter months to keep the businesses from University to Bathurst happy. They seem to have been losing business due to this change and something should be done to attract people to come to King via TTC. Maybe they should do what they did on St. Clair and introduce the 2hr pass as part of the Pilot here.

 

[TransitBart]

This is great but they need to do something in the winter months to keep the businesses from University to Bathurst happy. They seem to have been losing business due to this change and something should be done to attract people to come to King via TTC. Maybe they should do what they did on St. Clair and introduce the 2hr pass as part of the Pilot here.

The two hour pass is everywhere from January 1.

 

[adrianaliu]

All very nice, but the topic surmise should make it clear that the King Project isn't a pedestrian mall at all, it's "king-and-queen-streetcar-transit-mall-priority-measures".

*Transit* Mall. I see only one example of streetcars/trams/trolleys in the pics and descriptions posted. And they have "504" on them.

Are you suggesting that streetcars be done away with on King?

All very nice, but the title of the article should make it clear that it is not limited only to pedestrian malls, it's "The Best *Urban Street Transformation* of 2017 is...".

Dude nobody mentioned pedestrian malls, King is a great example of transit priority to improve an urban street and other examples include pedestrian priority. Why would anyone suggest that streetcars be removed on King. But as for other streetcar routes, I don't think King street should be replicated anywhere else in the city. I hope to see streetcars off queen in 10-15 years and have it reduced to 2 lanes so we can have a really nice street for pedestrianz with a subway underneath and an infrequent bus service like yonge. I love this pilot but I don't think it would be needed outside of king street, if anything extend it to be from Dufferin to Parliament.

 

[MetroMan]

Status report: more and more cars are ignoring the signs and driving through. The trend does not look good. Rather than improved compliance over time, it’s getting worse.

When the city made the streetcar lanes on King an exclusive ROW during rush hour, I’m sure that there was some police enforcement in the early days. Then people started ignoring the signs and soon enough, the police ignored anybody driving in the streetcar lanes during rush hour. The King Street Pilot is heading for the same fate if this trend continues.

 

[W. K. Lis]

All very nice, but the topic surmise should make it clear that the King Project isn't a pedestrian mall at all, it's "king-and-queen-streetcar-transit-mall-priority-measures".

*Transit* Mall. I see only one example of streetcars/trams/trolleys in the pics and descriptions posted. And they have "504" on them.

Are you suggesting that streetcars be done away with on King?

The quote in the Halifax entry says: Argyle and Grafton were rebuilt as “shared spaces” that allow pedestrians, cyclists, and motorists to mix while prioritizing people on foot. The arrangement uses visual cues to get drivers to slow down and proceed at a walking pace.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

One of the more pleasant aspects for downtown commuters coming eastbound must be the University stop, as you now enter the PATH via the much better entrance into the food court on the SE corner.

Those heading to the subway have a slightly longer walk, but those headed for TD Centre must be happy.

 

[steveintoronto]

Dude nobody mentioned pedestrian malls

Dude, you'd best re-read what was posted.

Argyle and Grafton were rebuilt as “shared spaces” that allow pedestrians, cyclists, and motorists to mix while prioritizing people on foot. The arrangement uses visual cues to get drivers to slow down and proceed at a walking pace.

A true transit mall has no cars on it anywhere.

Only one example is a transit mall. And that's what the "priority" in the discussion refers to.

For example, the very last case discussed:

Argyle and Grafton were rebuilt as “shared spaces” that allow pedestrians, cyclists, and motorists to mix while prioritizing people on foot. The arrangement uses visual cues to get drivers to slow down and proceed at a walking pace.

The net effect is to give pedestrians free rein. On Grafton and Argyle, people can cross the street wherever they choose. While drivers are still allowed, parking was eliminated to make more room for foot traffic, street furniture, and event space.

Where's the transit?

Perhaps the gist of the discussion has been missed? The goal is to *speed up and give priority to the King streetcar such as to ensure regular headway and greater throughput*. The pedestrian realm is also important, but not at the expense of transit in this instance. No wonder some are calling this a "war on cars". It's being turned into one whereas the original intent is getting lost: Prioritizing transit's needs, not banning cars willy-nilly.

Posts like this play into the hands of those intent on blocking the purpose of this "pilot".

There's various interpretations of what constitutes a "Transit Mall", but here's a commonly accepted one:

A transit mall is a street, or set of streets, in a city or town along which automobile traffic is prohibited or greatly restricted and only public transit vehicles, bicycles, and pedestrians are permitted.

Transit malls are instituted by communities who feel that it is desirable to have areas not dominated by the automobile, or as a way to speed travel time through an area—usually the city center—for transit vehicles and as a transport hub for interchanges, making them more efficient and thereby more attractive as an alternative to car use. Converting a street or an area to a transit mall can be a form of pedestrianization, allowing pedestrians and cyclists as well as transit vehicles to move more freely, unimpeded by private motor traffic, if autos are banned completely. However, some transit malls are not auto-free, but rather restrict cars and other private traffic to only short segments or only one lane, with other lanes being limited to buses or trams (streetcars).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_mall

And here's one of a number of transit malls that have failed, in a highly progressive US city for transit and cycling infrastructure:

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/transit_mall_case_studies_sanfran.pdf

Some posters are rabidly anti-car, I get it, but this isn't about you, it's about making the King TRANSIT Project a success.

I keep reading comments like "wildly successful" etc. It isn't...yet. It could be, but only if people keep cool heads and don't take the Von Münchhausen Express.

Addendum: More on the Portland example: (It has close parallels to King in many ways, but one major difference, it uses two contra-direction streets to do it with. As well as traffic flows, it has great bearing on 'signal priority' since only one direction is affected by 'sequence interruption'. Note the single white bar for the transit signal, adaptable to Ontario)

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/transit_mall_case_studies_sanfran.pdf

 

[LNahid2000]

The two hour pass is everywhere from January 1.

No it's not. This isn't happening until August 2018.

 

[TransitBart]

No it's not. This isn't happening until August 2018.

My mistake. Apologies.

 

[steveintoronto]

It's worth reviewing the gist of Transit Bart's answer to lead 82:

This is great but they need to do something in the winter months to keep the businesses from University to Bathurst happy. They seem to have been losing business due to this change and something should be done to attract people to come to King via TTC. Maybe they should do what they did on St. Clair and introduce the 2hr pass as part of the Pilot here.

The two hour pass is everywhere from January 1.

Even though Bart was incorrect, small 'investments' like this can make a radical difference to the King Project.

Maybe they should do what they did on St. Clair and introduce the 2hr pass as part of the Pilot here.

It's an excellent idea. My concern would be how to implement exceptions to the transfer rules, but since it worked well on St Clair for some time, it should be immediately considered for King.

TTC sees a loss doing this? If that's the comeback on this, it's yet one more case of Toronto throwing peanuts at a monkey and expecting to hear it play a symphony. To make this work *even as a pilot* requires far more than $1.5M. How freakin' cheap is this town? Subways to nowhere, and more planned, at the cost of $Billions, and yet not invest in proper priority signals for the third largest carrier of passengers in Toronto? You shouldn't even need a "Pilot" to invest in that.

The greatest failure of "priority signals" is in the thinking of Council and the TTC Board. Two hour transfers for the King Project, Toronto. Do you want this to be a success or not?

 

[LNahid2000]

It's an excellent idea. My concern would be how to implement exceptions to the transfer rules, but since it worked well on St Clair for some time, it should be immediately considered for King.

The 2 hour transfer was removed from St Clair when they switched to flexities because they couldn't figure out or didn't want to bother programming the transfer on a single route with Presto. They'd also have to figure out how to have the onboard machines spit out 2 hour transfers for people paying cash. Also, how would people transferring from other routes get their 2 hour transfer? It was easy to implement with the old streetcars because the driver would simply hand out 2 hour transfers.

Since King runs both old streetcars and flexities, the same issues would come up here. I doubt the TTC wants to spend their resources figuring this out for one route when the whole system will have 2 hour transfers in 8 months.

 

[steveintoronto]

The 2 hour transfer was removed from St Clair when they switched to flexities because they couldn't figure out or didn't want to bother programming the transfer on a single route with Presto. They'd also have to figure out how to have the onboard machines spit out 2 hour transfers for people paying cash. It was easy to implement with the old streetcars because the driver would simply hand out 2 hour transfers.

Since King runs both old streetcars and flexities, the same issues would come up here. I doubt the TTC wants to spend their resources figuring this out for one route when the whole system will have 2 hour transfers in 8 months.

Agreed on all points, save for the obvious: The TTC merely has to *honour* a stated agreement to not enforce whatever general conditions apply for the remaining eight months when checking transfers or Presto Cards on the 504 and 514. As long as it's not beyond two hours from when the fare was issued, it will be honoured by fare inspectors on those two routes, in either direction.

The Presto Card might present a problem in needing an altered algorithm for the 504/514 to get a transfer issued for two hours when the fare is paid somewhere else, but if so, that violates the claim for the Presto capabilities even at its present level of (in)competence. And if so, the programming for the transfer machines on the 504 and 514 cars could be changed. (It appears as a simple over-ride on a logic input) One presumes that's possible, but it is easy to forget this is Toronto where Presto is code for Complications. *Something* can be worked out.

Local merchants can advertise that as well as the TTC and Council. To ignore their concerns is to kick a hole big enough in the hull of this project to sink it.

 

[LNahid2000]

The Presto Card might present a problem in needing an altered algorithm for the 504/514, but if so, that violates the claim for the Presto capabilities even at its present level of (in)competence. If so, the programming for the transfer machines on the 504 and 514 cars could be changed. One presumes that's possible, but it is easy to forget this is Toronto where Presto is code for Complications. *Something* can be worked out.

Of course it's possible, but the effort required to do it is likely not worth it. As someone who works in software, I know that even minor changes can sometimes take a lot of effort to implement. They need to go through the whole software development life cycle which includes updating all sorts of documentation with the changes being made, doing the actual coding, and doing thorough testing before implementing the change.

Another issue with implementing 2 hour transfers on King immediately is that you'd no longer be able to measure success of the pilot accurately. How would you be able to know whether an increase in ridership was the result of the pilot, or the result of 2 hour transfers being implemented?