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is racism common in Toronto?

My theory on multicultural Toronto is our city is where people come from racist places all over the world, get jumbled together, and become less racist over time. It doesn't mean there's no racism, it just means we're doing okay compared to other places. My european grandparents said some really wild stuff over the years about other races, but I'd like to think I'm much more tolerant. I've seen it also from friends who have moved here from other countries, rural Ontario, etc. and become more and more tolerant.

You can drive yourself nuts trying to define what racism is, though, because at the end of the day it tends to be the 'victim' that defines when something is offensive. If The Simpsons used the same degree of stereotyping to make fun of Jewish people as they did the Irish they would get kicked off the air.

So just get over it and try to judge people by their character.... unless they're Irish.
 
Does racism exist in Toronto? Of course it does

Most definitely... especially at the high school level. There's 17,000 + members of the facebook group "you know your from scarborough when..", and one of the comments from this group is:
Source: http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=2219786742&page=170&hash=606e9dde1f10d4ccc69d3213c0e37a0a
"when Agincourt C.I. is now "ASIANcourt CI", Cedarbrae CI is now "CedaBLACK CI", Mowat CI is now "MoWHITE CI" and Woburn CI becomes "WoBROWN CI" LOL".
Being a product of Woburn, I can tell you that those nicknames were synonymous with the actual names of the schools.
 
My theory on multicultural Toronto is our city is where people come from racist places all over the world, get jumbled together, and become less racist over time. It doesn't mean there's no racism, it just means we're doing okay compared to other places. My european grandparents said some really wild stuff over the years about other races, but I'd like to think I'm much more tolerant. I've seen it also from friends who have moved here from other countries, rural Ontario, etc. and become more and more tolerant.

Maybe. Some places, like my hometown Markham, have been getting more and more ethnically isolated in recent history. Not much jumbling together going on. And that's a big problem. Similarly, people praise Vancouver for its multiculturalism, but to be honest, it's mostly just becoming a Chinese city. Not really multiculturalism, just cultural replacement over time.
 
Maybe. Some places, like my hometown Markham, have been getting more and more ethnically isolated in recent history. Not much jumbling together going on. And that's a big problem. Similarly, people praise Vancouver for its multiculturalism, but to be honest, it's mostly just becoming a Chinese city. Not really multiculturalism, just cultural replacement over time.
I went to a mostly Chinese mall in Markham a few years back, and one specific experience really disappointed me.

There was this Chinese bulk food store with dirty floors and a rude owner. It was packed full of Chinese customers. I refused to shop there because the owner was not very nice to me.

On the other side of the mall was a Portugese run bulk food store with much of the same stock, but it was spotless, and the owners were extremely helpful and pleasant. It was completely devoid of customers.

Sure, you have to question the wisdom of a non-Chinese speaking Portugese couple taking up shop in a mostly Chinese mall, but I definitely felt very sorry for them, as it seemed (to me at least) the entire mall's customers were giving them the cold shoulder simply because they were not Chinese.
 
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Sure, you have to question the wisdom of a non-Chinese speaking Portugese couple taking up shop in a mostly Chinese mall, but I definitely felt very sorry for them, as it seemed (to me at least) the entire mall's customers were giving them the cold shoulder simply because they were not Chinese.


or the business owners do not speak chinese, and/or the clientele do not speak english very well to communicate with the operators?
 
I went to a mostly Chinese mall in Markham a few years back, and one specific experience really disappointed me.

There was this Chinese bulk food store with dirty floors and a rude owner. It was packed full of Chinese customers. I refused to shop there because the owner was not very nice to me.

On the other side of the mall was a Portugese run bulk food store with much of the same stock, but it was spotless, and the owners were extremely helpful and pleasant. It was completely devoid of customers.

Sure, you have to question the wisdom of a non-Chinese speaking Portugese couple taking up shop in a mostly Chinese mall, but I definitely felt very sorry for them, as it seemed (to me at least) the entire mall's customers were giving them the cold shoulder simply because they were not Chinese.

I went to a famous brand women clothes store in a high end shopping mall in the west end of GTA just two weeks' ago. When I was ready to try the top I selected on, one other white lady came after me together getting into the fitting room. The store customer representative completely ignored me but turned very friendly to the lady after me called her Maddam, told her his name and if she needed anything just let him know and so on.

Did I object at the time? I guess I could've. I did not because if I bothered I would object a lot little moments and occasions for all the people doing these to us consciously or "subconsciously", the visible minority group.

It seems the previous instance has been amplified. The Chinese community may appear to not welcome other people but for sure the visible minorities have been treated more unfairly with more severe level because of our skin color - so that there is the human equity definition set-up specifically for the group.
 
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Sure, you have to question the wisdom of a non-Chinese speaking Portugese couple taking up shop in a mostly Chinese mall, but I definitely felt very sorry for them, as it seemed (to me at least) the entire mall's customers were giving them the cold shoulder simply because they were not Chinese.

While I definitely agree that there is too much ethnic nepotism in the community, I should say that a lot of people in Markham's insulated Chinese community don't have great English skills either and that might be an additional factor in why they were all crowding in the Chinese shops with Chinese owners. Of course, the English proficiency is its own problem, but it's not completely about giving cold shoulders and such.

As for X2_Buyer, I think we'd all agree that everyone is guilty of racism in some way or another. But personally I think the amount of racism and isolationist tendency directed at the Chinese community in this day is a lot less than the amount coming from us. But that's just my opinion, I'm not going to make anyone else agree.
 
or the business owners do not speak chinese, and/or the clientele do not speak english very well to communicate with the operators?
Yes perhaps, but perhaps people should think twice... when the business owner that does speak the same language treats his customers like dirt, only because he can get away with it. I couldn't believe the rudeness of the Chinese shop's owners. Worse than the waiters at Schwartz's deli in Montreal, and that's quite an accomplishment. I stopped patronizing Schwartz's because they're consistently so obnoxious.


While I definitely agree that there is too much ethnic nepotism in the community, I should say that a lot of people in Markham's insulated Chinese community don't have great English skills either and that might be an additional factor in why they were all crowding in the Chinese shops with Chinese owners. Of course, the English proficiency is its own problem, but it's not completely about giving cold shoulders and such.

As for X2_Buyer, I think we'd all agree that everyone is guilty of racism in some way or another. But personally I think the amount of racism and isolationist tendency directed at the Chinese community in this day is a lot less than the amount coming from us. But that's just my opinion, I'm not going to make anyone else agree.
That's probably a large part of it. However, there is still this attitude that a non-Chinese cannot possibly do it right. It's hard to determine where the line exists between heavy "nepotism" and light racism.


I went to a famous brand women clothes store in a high end shopping mall in the west end of GTA just two weeks' ago. When I was ready to try the top I selected on, one other white lady came after me together getting into the fitting room. The store customer representative completely ignored me but turned very friendly to the lady after me called her Maddam, told her his name and if she needed anything just let him know and so on.

Did I object at the time? I guess I could've. I did not because if I bothered I would object a lot little moments and occasions for all the people doing these to us consciously or "subconsciously", the visible minority group.

It seems the previous instance has been amplified. The Chinese community may appear to not welcome other people but for sure the visible minorities have been treated more unfairly with more severe level because of our skin color - so that there is the human equity definition set-up specifically for the group.
It happens on both sides. My GF went to a noodle shop owned by a Chinese couple. She is not Chinese. She asked for some hot sauce. They brought a tiny little bit. She asked for a bit more... and the husband of the couple running the place was going to bring it, but then the matriarch went on this long diatribe how Caucasians can't eat hot food and if she puts the hot sauce into the food it's all going to waste because she won't be able to eat it. Only Chinese eat hot food like that. My GF assured her it's fine, but she refused because she said non-Chinese don't understand. She wasn't joking either. Completely serious, and very shrill. What's worse is she started repeating the same thing to all her customers, many of whom (thankfully) were giving her a confused look, not a look of agreement. Finally, under protest, she allowed her husband to bring a tiny dab more but that was it.

I can understand if she felt insulted that putting too much hot sauce would ruin her recipe, but that wasn't it. It was basically because she thought she knew better than this dumb Caucasian woman. She was perfectly happy to give her hot sauce to other restaurant patrons.

Anyways, my GF's protest was not to give a tip, and told her why.

This is of course not a big deal in the greater scheme of things, but still it does illustrate the stupidity of racism that still does exist in Toronto.

On the lighter side, I saw this show talking about an Italian bagel maker in Montreal. It was quite a funny documentary, as they made a point of interviewing the Jewish community, including Rabbis and orthodox Jews, etc. The comments ranged from "[jokingly] Sacrilege, it's just not right." to "Bring it on, we'll show them who's the best." to "As long as it's good, I'll go there." But I guess the difference here is everyone was able to speak the same language, so that wasn't a barrier.
 
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I went to a famous brand women clothes store in a high end shopping mall in the west end of GTA just two weeks' ago. When I was ready to try the top I selected on, one other white lady came after me together getting into the fitting room. The store customer representative completely ignored me but turned very friendly to the lady after me called her Maddam, told her his name and if she needed anything just let him know and so on.

Did I object at the time? I guess I could've. I did not because if I bothered I would object a lot little moments and occasions for all the people doing these to us consciously or "subconsciously", the visible minority group.

It seems the previous instance has been amplified. The Chinese community may appear to not welcome other people but for sure the visible minorities have been treated more unfairly with more severe level because of our skin color - so that there is the human equity definition set-up specifically for the group.


Are you a regular at that store? Was she? A lot of sales associates are very friendly with semi-regulars and regulars. Also, what were YOU wearing (i.e. did you look a little on the slobby side) vs what she was wearing (did she look more put-together than you)? I would be careful to call racism before these other issues, considering that it isn't weird to see Chinese people buy high end in this part of the country.
 
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Are you a regular at that store? Was she? A lot of sales associates are very friendly with semi-regulars and regulars. Also, what were YOU wearing (i.e. did you look a little on the slobby side) vs what she was wearing (did she look more put-together than you)? I would be careful to call racism before these other issues, considering that it isn't weird to see Chinese people buy high end in this part of the country.
Good point.

I used to get snubbed much more often when I'd walk into a store wearing a t-shirt and a faded jean jacket in my early 20s than I do now, with my more generic work-friendly attire.
 
I went to a famous brand women clothes store in a high end shopping mall in the west end of GTA just two weeks' ago. When I was ready to try the top I selected on, one other white lady came after me together getting into the fitting room. The store customer representative completely ignored me but turned very friendly to the lady after me called her Maddam, told her his name and if she needed anything just let him know and so on...

Are you a regular at that store? Was she? A lot of sales associates are very friendly with semi-regulars and regulars. Also, what were YOU wearing (i.e. did you look a little on the slobby side) vs what she was wearing (did she look more put-together than you)? I would be careful to call racism before these other issues, considering that it isn't weird to see Chinese people buy high end in this part of the country.

Well... X2 did say that the salesman had to tell her his name and called her madame instead of by name, so not likely that she was a regular.

Racism is very difficult to prove and that's one reason why it's so easy to get away with. I've had similar experience as X2 of being treated "differently" by salespersons, but it only happens on very rare occasions, regardless of how I dress. It's subtle & indirect so you can't really say for sure, but deep down, your gut tells you this is what it is. And in my recent travels to Vietnam, I've seen it in reverse where Caucasians were the ones being "ignored."
 
I went to a mostly Chinese mall in Markham a few years back, and one specific experience really disappointed me.

There was this Chinese bulk food store with dirty floors and a rude owner. It was packed full of Chinese customers. I refused to shop there because the owner was not very nice to me.

On the other side of the mall was a Portugese run bulk food store with much of the same stock, but it was spotless, and the owners were extremely helpful and pleasant. It was completely devoid of customers.
...

I think I know the store you're talking about, they were there for many years so they couldn't have been "completely devoid of customers" all the time. And I don't think it's the same as the Chinese "bulk" place. The Chinese place I know there sells the higher demand Chinese medicinal products (in similar bulk boxes) as well.

...It happens on both sides. My GF went to a noodle shop owned by a Chinese couple. She is not Chinese. She asked for some hot sauce. They brought a tiny little bit. She asked for a bit more... and the husband of the couple running the place was going to bring it, but then the matriarch went on this long diatribe how Caucasians can't eat hot food and if she puts the hot sauce into the food it's all going to waste because she won't be able to eat it. Only Chinese eat hot food like that. ...

This is very unusual and the matriarch was an ignoramus. This is a way out there example not unlike the one I heard about the waiter at a European restaurant not giving bread to a table of Chinese customers because he thought Asians eat rice and thus they'd be wasting the bread.
 
Most definitely... especially at the high school level. There's 17,000 + members of the facebook group "you know your from scarborough when..", and one of the comments from this group is:
Source: http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=2219786742&page=170&hash=606e9dde1f10d4ccc69d3213c0e37a0a
"when Agincourt C.I. is now "ASIANcourt CI", Cedarbrae CI is now "CedaBLACK CI", Mowat CI is now "MoWHITE CI" and Woburn CI becomes "WoBROWN CI" LOL".
Being a product of Woburn, I can tell you that those nicknames were synonymous with the actual names of the schools.

I don't know if that's racist... if anything, it's just identifying the ethnic majority of a school.. not the most politically correct....

What should be concerning is the trend of schools becoming 'ghettos' for one ethnicity.

There will always be a certain degree of 'racism' no matter how well intentioned one is. When you break down to it, racism is just another form of stereotyping by a general grouping.

Considering the content of this board, I'm sure people have different preconcieved notions depending on where you live. I.E. When someone tells you they are from Yorkville, orQueen West, or Parkdale, Scarborough, Burlington, do we not conjure up some sort of idea the type of person/socioeconomic background/political leaning profile? And in turn make a quick judgement on how they would react/behave in certain situations?
(not saying it's right, but it's just human nature)

To the original poster:
ltimately, the degree of 'racism ' in Toronto is not prevelant enough to take away from your quality of life. Period.
 
Well... X2 did say that the salesman had to tell her his name and called her madame instead of by name, so not likely that she was a regular.

Racism is very difficult to prove and that's one reason why it's so easy to get away with. I've had similar experience as X2 of being treated "differently" by salespersons, but it only happens on very rare occasions, regardless of how I dress. It's subtle & indirect so you can't really say for sure, but deep down, your gut tells you this is what it is. And in my recent travels to Vietnam, I've seen it in reverse where Caucasians were the ones being "ignored."

I'm a regular some stores (more a regular browser than a shopper). The sales people know me (or at least my face), but they don't know my name. Also, it may be possible that at some stores, it's policy to call all clients sir/madam (unless calling them by phone or emailing them) rather than Mr. or Ms. Lastname. Just a thought.
 
I think I know the store you're talking about, they were there for many years so they couldn't have been "completely devoid of customers" all the time. And I don't think it's the same as the Chinese "bulk" place. The Chinese place I know there sells the higher demand Chinese medicinal products (in similar bulk boxes) as well.
If it's the same places, I'm glad to hear that. My story was from many years ago. I haven't been back since, because I don't live in the area.

Perhaps more and more people gave that non-Chinese store a chance... as they should have as the other store was quite dirty and the owner was rude. Competition is good.


This is very unusual and the matriarch was an ignoramus. This is a way out there example not unlike the one I heard about the waiter at a European restaurant not giving bread to a table of Chinese customers because he thought Asians eat rice and thus they'd be wasting the bread.
Yes. Racism is often borne out of ignorance.

I'm just glad we in Toronto generally not killing each other over this stuff. We can laugh at the hot sauce and bread incidents, luckily.
 

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