Insufficient Sidewalks Downtown

[valkoholic]

There's a good chance Jarvis Street will end up with bike lanes. I think we need to be a little bit more careful about how many roads get bike lanes. I realize the cycling lobby is extremely powerful these days but its important to remember cycling repressents less than 1% of travel in the city. Putting in bike lanes means no on-street parking and no wider boulevard, both of which are great for pedestrians. The need for bike lanes should be weighed very carefully against the loss of space for other users.

 

[dunkalunk]

Coming from a cyclist, bike lanes are almost entirely useless in an urban setting, unless they are physically separated. Cars and courier trucks pull into them, causing cyclists to swerve into traffic. Putting a white line on the road also causes drivers to pass at a closer distance than if there wasn't one. It's an illusion of being safer. Drivers often don't check their mirrors to look into bike lanes, giving many cyclists the coveted door prize. It also takes up space that could be used for sidewalks.

Instead, we should be having 2 type of bike routes. Physically separated from traffic by parked cars or a physical barrier, or designated shared roads with signs (perhaps green paint) marking that it is a shared bike/auto route.

"sharrows" in Vancouver
Link to Vancouver biking website

Parking separated bike lane

 

[confusion]

but its important to remember cycling repressents less than 1% of travel in the city.

Maybe in the entire city, but pretty sure this thread is focused on the downtown core. We're talking about 10% here in the summer.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Good column on Planetizen by Brent Toderian, Vancouver's Planning Director, summarizing a presentation that Copenhagen's Director of Traffic made re: cycling

http://www.planetizen.com/node/37856 (with link to the video)

cycling is something for everyone, it shouldn't be about a 'lobby' or just for people wearing spandex, helmets, with a subscription to Spacing Mag etc

 

[AKS]

I didn't say that there were crowds only during parades. I said the only time I've felt crowded is during parades or something. Events at Dundas Square would be something. And I've certainly been in Dundas Square many times when there was nothing happening - so I'm not sure how you say that there is always events happening - that is as much as a mistruth as if you'd said there are never events happening.

If your going to sit there and just point out that what I wrote is not correct, you should actually respond to what I wrote, and not some fictionalized version of it. And you should not make such obviously untrue claims in response!

I can't say I've ever felt that the sidewalks were that crowded in Toronto - except perhaps when watching a parade or something. Worst I recall seeing is trying to walk south on York to Union Station in AM rush ... when everyone else is heading north.

You said it doesn't get crowded in Toronto except while watching parade and worst you saw was Union rush hour. I'm saying Dundas square is just as busy during events. It's not busy every minute of the day. But on some days it gets very busy depending on the event. Besides events, it also seems like a popular place for protests. If it weren't busy, they wouldn't have had to completely block off the road on certain days. I could hardly pass through during that last protest they had. Trying to turn here and there just to find whatever space so I could get to the other corner of the street.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Would turning Yonge-Dundas pedestrian on week-ends be out of the question then?

Nothing permanent, just a look-see as to how it would turn out. Shut down Yonge from Shuter to Elm and Dundas from Victoria to Bay on Saturdays and Sundays during certain summer months (I don't know.....May to September).

Something as has been done with Kensington Market and Queen's Quay and perhaps a similar look-see at Queen West. Could also be only during certain hours of the day 9h-23h, for example.

Or am I still dreaming?

 

[Chuck]

Something along the lines of St. George St. would probably work well on Yonge. One through lane of traffic in each direction, 1 bike lane in each direction, wide sidewalks, and in the event that a car needs to stop to let someone out or pick someone up, traffic still has enough room to go around.

 

[nfitz]

you said it doesn't get crowded in toronto except while watching parade ...

that is not what i said - stop putting words in my mouth!

 

[junctionist]

Speaking of St. George, now there's a street that could serve as a beautiful pedestrianized street. It's not a major arterial, there aren't any transit routes, and the pedestrian traffic is plentiful. It is loaded with wonderful architecture too.

 

[Hydrogen]

So if you need to do something on Yonge, which requires going through the crowds... "Take Bay"

Everyone is on Yonge for their own specific reason. You can't just reroute pedestrian flow like you would an expressway.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If you don't like the crowds on Yonge then walk on Bay. It's actually really easy. Let me explain it to you. If you know where you want to go (always key), but dislike what you consider to be a crowded sidewalk, all you do is walk along a less crowded sidewalk until you get close to your intended destination. If you're on Bay, turn left on the street that is closest to your goal, and continue until you reach it.

Voila!

Of course people are on Yonge for their own specific reason - unless they are just wandering it aimlessly. But if you don't like crowds, take another route. It's quite simple. And as for me rerouting pedestrian flow, I'm doing nothing of the kind. All I'm suggesting is a way to avoid crowds - if you don't like them. Others here are suggesting shutting down Yonge to car traffic. Now that's an act of rerouting.

 

[MisterF]

There's a good chance Jarvis Street will end up with bike lanes. I think we need to be a little bit more careful about how many roads get bike lanes. I realize the cycling lobby is extremely powerful these days but its important to remember cycling repressents less than 1% of travel in the city. Putting in bike lanes means no on-street parking and no wider boulevard, both of which are great for pedestrians. The need for bike lanes should be weighed very carefully against the loss of space for other users.

The rebuilt Jarvis St. won't have bike lanes.

 

[smuncky]

some concepts for a redesign of an intersection in NYC...

In June 2008, Transportation Alternatives launched the competition 21st Century Street. Partecipants to the competition should redesign the intersection between 9th Street and 4th Avenue in Brooklyn, in order to allow more space for pedestrians, cyclists and public transports.

On December 9, 2008, the results of the competition have been announced, and you can see the winners after the break.

bigger images can be seen at ArchDaily.

 

[dunkalunk]

bigger images can be seen at ArchDaily.

I always thought humus=delicious chick pea and olive old based dip/spread from the middle east, not people. Humus is made from people?

I also really like the idea of bike boxes, they're really easy to implement, I don't know why toronto doesn't do it.

The central bike lanes are also an interesting concept, I'd like to see a real world example to see how they function.

 

[Whoaccio]

Speaking of St. George, now there's a street that could serve as a beautiful pedestrianized street. It's not a major arterial, there aren't any transit routes, and the pedestrian traffic is plentiful. It is loaded with wonderful architecture too.

Is that really necessary? St. George does have a lot of foot traffic but it has quite accommodating sidewalks as it is. I've never felt like there isn't enough room. Is there still talk of pedestrianizing Gould St? That would probably make more sense.

I've also got to ask, when people talk about "pedestrianizing" what exactly do they mean? I've always thought pedestrian streets were a bit week when all they were were normal streets closed down to cars. Whats the point? Even in Europe these things are pretty pointless. If we ever do get around to it, they should be designed as more of a public space than a road. So, trees that don't look like they have FAS, benches (and not the technocratic anti-homeless benches, either), public art and restaurant/cafe/bar space. And some kind of surface more appealing than asphalt (but not cobblestones, they may look pretty but they are awful to walk/bike/stand on).

 

[DSC]

The rebuilt Jarvis St. won't have bike lanes.

I think the jury is still out on bike lanes on Jarvis north of Queen Street as the final plan for this stretch is still under discussion.
The study on Lower Jarvis is coming to Community Council next week and the street south of Front DEFINITELY won't have bike lanes. (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-19620.pdf )

I certainly would not cycle on Lower Jarvis as it is inevitably going to be (remain) a major access/egress from the Gardiner and there are already bike lanes on Sherbourne (which is due to be upgraded south of King in 2010) and on Yonge from the lake to The Esplanade (due to be built when it warms up this year.).