Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TOareaFan]

I disagree, the extension further into Brampton will connect to a rail station, downtown centre, Queen street (eventual rapid transit throughway), and be closer to the population than the Gateway Terminal would be.

Closer yes....close not at all.

It wasn't public support that canceled the LRT to Brampton GO, it was political infighting and indecision that caused this. The politicians having no consensus of where to route the LRT caused no LRT at all.

I never said that public support killed it....I said lack of public interest/caring, made it easier for the people opposed to it to succeed.

 

[TOareaFan]

Guess it depends on how public support is defined and how it should factor into approval of a project. Also, shouldn't the existing transit users who use the corridor (and in increasing numbers with Zum over recent years) - who'd benefit from more efficient service - factor into the public support consideration?

Of course they are....but the short stretch of Main that this line would touch impacts far fewer people than you think in Brampton....starting that network with the Queen line might have got more general support/enthusiasm for rapid transit....it simply touches far more of the city and would be far more visible to far more people (even people not actually using transit).

The corridor was part of a larger network plan and the LRT could have been extended further northward.

I never opposed the route...but had issues with the technology....taking LRT north of Nelson would have been a real slap in the face of anyone that values fact based decisioning.

Many of the trips in all of the 905, not just Brampton, will generally be by car even with more transit. If public awareness and getting the majority of a municipality's residents to use a transit line are the bars set for transit to be approved, funded, and built, I question if anything would ever happen.

Like I said above "I never said that public support killed it....I said lack of public interest/caring, made it easier for the people opposed to it to succeed."

 

[Sagaris88]

Closer yes....close not at all.



I never said that public support killed it....I said lack of public interest/caring, made it easier for the people opposed to it to succeed.

Yes, it is closer that is why it is needed. Closer is better than not close at all. Hurontario LRT would connect to a multitude of bus lines and other transit which would allow the rest of the city's citizens to use the LRT line. Of course, the Hurontario LRT cannot service the whole of Brampton because it is just one transit line. The The extension to the GO station is just a stepping block to greater expansion of transit to the city.

But the public did support. 52% of residents disagree with council's decision to vote down the Hurontario alignment to Brampton GO station.

 

[Allandale25]

Like I said above "I never said that public support killed it....I said lack of public interest/caring, made it easier for the people opposed to it to succeed."

And I never implied you said that. I was just commenting on the public supporting/caring concepts in general.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, it is closer that is why it is needed. Closer is better than not close at all. Hurontario LRT would connect to a multitude of bus lines and other transit which would allow the rest of the city's citizens to use the LRT line.

That bolded part shows a lack of understanding of the geography of Brampton and where ridership is. This map is out of date...but it is the last time BT published ridership by route (in the planning stages of Zum) so the numbers will have changed but they still have value.

As you can see:

• The vast majority of Brampton lives East of Main (and a good chunk of it far east)
• There are a bunch of busy/well used North South routes east of Main.....you have to presume those people are going somewhere
• I happen to use one of those routes (#7) fairly frequently and transfer at Queen to get to the GO......those westbound buses in the morning are virtually empty....and when my full bus half empties at Queen...there are maybe 1 or 2 other people with me transfering to go west....the rest are headed east. Since the bus that arrives to take us west is always near/virtually empty, we can assume that the people using the 18/15/14/30 buses also did not transfer to a westbound trip....they either continued south of queen or transfered to an Eastbound trip.

The LRT would not be visible to any of those people and would not provide a transit alternative to them either.....so they did not care....certainly not enough to pressure their councillor to vote in favour of the LRT...which opened the door for those opposed to the route to vote it down. (again, I feel compelled to remind, my opposition to the LRT was never based on route).

Support (and resultant pressure on politicians) would have been higher if the "network" everyone talked about started with some sort of RT on Queen...it would have been more visible...I get why it didn't....it was a QP/Mississauga driven initiative but the reality is it did not impact enough people in Brampton to get the majority of the citizens even the least bit excited.

Of course, the Hurontario LRT cannot service the whole of Brampton because it is just one transit line.

That is true of any line in any city.....but most cities start their move to higher order transit in their busiest and most visible corridor....that was not the case here.

The The extension to the GO station is just a stepping block to greater expansion of transit to the city.

Even the ridership numbers in the business case (which I had real trouble with) never showed any significant delivery of people to Brampton in their numbers. Sure, the evening peak showed numbers (but that was presumably people returning home after work).

But the public did support. 52% of residents disagree with council's decision to vote down the Hurontario alignment to Brampton GO station.

Polls are far from infallible......and neither is anecdotal evidence....but I like to talk about transit (a lot) and during the heat of the debate over this I could not find one person in my family or friends in Brampton that could even describe what the debate was about....like most Bramptonians, most of my family lives east of Main....and the biggest group of responses I got was "LRT? what's that? its over there right? Are we getting more hospital beds?" .....outside of the media (limited to Brampton Guardian, really) and the politically active people could not be fussed to care about it. The most anyone new was the headline "Province is paying for it".

 

[Allandale25]

Support (and resultant pressure on politicians) would have been higher if the "network" everyone talked about started with some sort of RT on Queen...it would have been more visible...I get why it didn't....it was a QP/Mississauga driven initiative but the reality is it did not impact enough people in Brampton to get the majority of the citizens even the least bit excited.

And Council took the risk of saying no to the funding from the Province and studying alternatives to Main. By saying yes to Main, they could have worked with the Province to build that bigger network and possibly leverage more funding and better integration with Queen. Why not do both routes at the same time (and I realize I'm being a little general with the word "do")? Other cities are building multiple LRT routes or rapid transit routes. Council decided that they wanted to do something different (and likely hope for a different provincial government) and we'll see how it all turns out.

If Queen is a bigger priority or more transit for the people east of Main is a critical issue, it's hard to see how Council's decision to wait for Main alternatives until 2020 helps that cause. I get that you're more focused on ridership and the business case, but in my view, saying yes to the offer of funding for Main, leveraging it to build a bigger network (like Ottawa and KW are doing, or even Calgary) for routes like Queen or other parts of the Council-approved) transit master plan (picture below), makes more sense and is less risky. Windows where provincial/federal funding from any party/government are few a far between. We really want know if Council's gamble/decision was a smart move until after the next Provincial election - for Queen, anything east of Main, or the Main alternatives. Council had the transit master plan in front of them that shows the network which included Queen.

Maybe communication that Queen was part of the network could have been better. Maybe city staff, Metrolinx (or whoever does provincial planning after 2018 if the PCs get rid of Metrolinx), future mayors and Councillors will treat the HMLRT situation and the public awareness issues you've raised as a learning experience and see if anything more can be done to show that funding one transit line doesn't mean nothing will happen on the rest. That's not what happened in Ottawa or KW.

I'm not surprised the overall awareness of the LRT proposal was low. I bet though it's the same in all cities doing it/planning for it. Until shovels are in the ground and people physically see it, I agree that most of the people paying attention (including commentators here) are very engaged compared to the general population. BRT or LRT with dedicate lanes is also a bold new step for the 905 (and Hamilton, Ottawa, KW). There's nothing like it so it will take time for people to understand what it is and how it is physically different than conventional transit. I bet a lot of folks living in Mississauga still don't know what the Hurontario LRT will look like or how it'll interface with existing buses, or for the people living along or near the Finch LRT. It's certainly a challenge elected officials, city staff, and Metrolinx need to address and have strategies to account for, but I don't see Brampton being that different from other places/debates where a new form of transit (BRT or LRT) is being contemplated.

Another example is Malvern in Toronto. They are left out of the subway/LRT plan unfortunately. The only Scarborough Councillor to support the LRT plan represents a completely different area of Scarborough. So again, comparing the Brampton transit debate to the Scarborough LRT/subway debate and the role Malvern residents had at being aware/contracting Scarborough elected reps, I see parallels. It's unfortunate but I totally understand that many people don't have time to follow posts on UT or attend any and all consultation meetings/Council meetings.

 

[TOareaFan]

And Council took the risk of saying no to the funding from the Province and studying alternatives to Main. By saying yes to Main, they could have worked with the Province to build that bigger network and possibly leverage more funding and better integration with Queen. Why not do both routes at the same time (and I realize I'm being a little general with the word "do")? Other cities are building multiple LRT routes or rapid transit routes. Council decided that they wanted to do something different (and likely hope for a different provincial government) and we'll see how it all turns out.

Council was very (very) divided and whatever reasons some had for opposing the Main route (again, I don't want anyone to get the impression I personally had any issue with that route) they believed (or at least state) they are still a) in favour of LRT and b) in favour of that LRT getting to/connecting with the DT GO station. They only differ with ML/Ontario on how it gets there.

It is all hindsight, but I am at a loss on why the route was so important to ML/Ontario......on the one hand they stated that connecting to the GO was hugely important....on the other hand they are showing a willingness to just stop it at Steeles. Surely if Main is dead (as it seems) but connecting to the GO is so important, the correct response would have been...."pick your route north of Steeles.....make sure it connects to GO....but you get no more money and any cost above the approved funding is to be borne by Brampton taxpayers and you councillors will have to explain why you are paying more for the same result".

Anyway, this conversation has meandered and I don't think we need to beat a dead horse....I only got (re) involved because someone suggested Brampton is never getting an LRT (which is false) and the conversation stretched to me trying to explain why the issue was such low profile on the streets and malls of Brampton.

 

[Allandale25]

It is all hindsight, but I am at a loss on why the route was so important to ML/Ontario......on the one hand they stated that connecting to the GO was hugely important....on the other hand they are showing a willingness to just stop it at Steeles. Surely if Main is dead (as it seems) but connecting to the GO is so important, the correct response would have been...."pick your route north of Steeles.....make sure it connects to GO....but you get no more money and any cost above the approved funding is to be borne by Brampton taxpayers and you councillors will have to explain why you are paying more for the same result".

Anyway, this conversation has meandered and I don't think we need to beat a dead horse....I only got (re) involved because someone suggested Brampton is never getting an LRT (which is false) and the conversation stretched to me trying to explain why the issue was such low profile on the streets and malls of Brampton.

Thanks for the feedback. While this was never said by the Minister/Metrolinx/or anyone on Councillor specifically, my sense from what I read was that the six Councillors who did not support Main also did not support any municipal contribution to any LRT route. Maybe that will change in the future if a future provincial government offers less than 100% capital funding. Certain Councillors were concerned that they weren't actually being given 100% funding and that Brampton would end up paying some portion of the capital. And there there were lots of concerns about operating costs and how that would work.

So, based on what I've seen and read, even if the Province offered what you've suggested (Council pays the cost premium above Main for a non-Main route), I'm of the belief the six Councillors in question would still have said, "This isn't enough. It's 100% provincial (or provincial/federal) funding for the route we want (not Main) or we won't say yes". Calgary, KW, Ottawa all had to kick in a portion (usually 1/3rd) for their LRT routes buy we never heard a willingness from the six Brampton Councillors to do the same (even 10%).

Instead, there was a lot more rhetoric from the six Councillors that Brampton "deserves" funding from the Province. One of the Councillors said in the debate "the Province needs Brampton more than Brampton needs the Province"). Other lines included words like "Brampton is being short changed" by the Province in terms of funding and infrastructure. I'm not suggesting those sentiments are completely off-based or wrong, I'm just suggesting that I haven't see any indication that the six Councillors who want a different LRT route also are willing to use property tax funds to contribute to either the full cost north of Steeles, or the alternative route minus the Main funding.

 

[TOareaFan]

Thanks for the feedback. While this was never said by the Minister/Metrolinx/or anyone on Councillor specifically, my sense from what I read was that the six Councillors who did not support Main also did not support any municipal contribution to any LRT route.

With respect, that is just you reading into the debate something that has never been stated. I am just wondering (if that is what people feared) why ML did not call that bluff or allow that option.

And there there were lots of concerns about operating costs and how that would work.

As there should be....I really can't believe how many of these municipalities are signing up for this "free" provincial money without any agreement on how the operating costs will work.

Other lines included words like "Brampton is being short changed" by the Province in terms of funding and infrastructure.

This is very true...and not just in transit....and not mostly in transit.

 

[Allandale25]

With respect, that is just you reading into the debate something that has never been stated. I am just wondering (if that is what people feared) why ML did not call that bluff or allow that option.

No disrespect ever taken. As long as someone here doesn't call me a literal idiot I don't mind being strongly challenged or disagreed with, at all. So don't hold back.

I'm making the assertion, or "reading into", the position of the six Councillors not wanting any municipal LRT/BRT contribution based on the volume of their other statements and concerns raised that even the 100% was not perfectly 100%. Just my humble opinion. I think I see an overall pattern and narrative, which as elected officials is their prerogative.

If they had been willing to offer 10% or any number for a non-Main route, or had countered with more information on what exactly they wanted, it may have helped. After all, one of the Councillors moved to spend money on facilitation but I didn't see him provide any new or different ideas. Overall, it just seemed like the six Councillors said, "we don't like the offer. We're fine waiting until 2020 to see a report on alternative routes. We'll have a more specific position then." It's really the Minister who directs Metrolinx at the end of the day, so even if there were some staff at Metrolinx who would have been inclined to consider something else, it's not their ultimate call, as we saw in the Scarborough subway vs LRT debate, and with the Sheppard LRT. Maybe if Metrolinx had a different.

That could change I suppose if a different provincial government is elected and those six Councillors (ahead or after their election), do submit something to the new government or provide the public with a better sense of what they want and are willing do contribute.

 

[howl]

It is all hindsight, but I am at a loss on why the route was so important to ML/Ontario......on the one hand they stated that connecting to the GO was hugely important....on the other hand they are showing a willingness to just stop it at Steeles. Surely if Main is dead (as it seems) but connecting to the GO is so important, the correct response would have been...."pick your route north of Steeles.....make sure it connects to GO....but you get no more money and any cost above the approved funding is to be borne by Brampton taxpayers and you councillors will have to explain why you are paying more for the same result".

They should have just turned right at Eglinton or Derry and gone to Pearson.

 

[drum118]

They should have just turned right at Eglinton or Derry and gone to Pearson.

Why!!, when the ridership is non existing for either route in the first place???

MT only provide 45 minute headway service to the airport on Sunday for the route 7, down from 60.

 

[Hopkins123]

Why can't they just use a stacked tunnel (for minimal noise and vibration disturbance impact) and take the line to downtown Brampton directly under Main Street? I understand that surface is cheaper and all, but all this twisting ourselves into knots thinking up alternate routes to get to the GO station is getting ridiculous.

 

[drum118]

Why can't they just use a stacked tunnel (for minimal noise and vibration disturbance impact) and take the line to downtown Brampton directly under Main Street? I understand that surface is cheaper and all, but all this twisting ourselves into knots thinking up alternate routes to get to the GO station is getting ridiculous.

It can, but Brampton will have to pickup the full cost of the tunnel. Its in Brampton ball court as the Government not going to pay for that tunnel. More important, this area fails in comparison to Europe cities that have surface area in their downtown on narrow streets

At the same time, the tunnel will have to be built so the line can go north at a future date.

 

[TOareaFan]

Why can't they just use a stacked tunnel (for minimal noise and vibration disturbance impact) and take the line to downtown Brampton directly under Main Street?

It can, but Brampton will have to pickup the full cost of the tunnel. Its in Brampton ball court as the Government not going to pay for that tunnel. More important, this area fails in comparison to Europe cities that have surface area in their downtown on narrow streets

tunnel was looked at, studied by staff, voted on and rejected in a 10-nil vote (not sure who was absent/abstained)......March 2016

At the same time, the tunnel will have to be built so the line can go north at a future date.

Presumably any tunnel would end somewhere around the GO station so it would not impede northern extesion of this line....but, really, holding up anything on this to preserve northern expansion of this line is pointless......ridership on the whole line is dubious (in terms of tech choice) but north of, say, Vodden on Main street it is just crazy talk to think LRT will ever be needed.