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HST will impact condo maintenance fees
- Thread starter dpylyp
- Start date
Hank
Active Member
Sorry re: the calculations, I confused you and "The_Waffler".
You've also gone further than simply stating that you have a right to an opinion (as of course you do), you've stated your opinion, and a part of that opinion was that government "hardly has a track record of honesty" and that therefore we shouldn't believe (or at least should be skeptical about) what they're saying. My point was that it doesn't matter what the government says. Economists are the ones saying that this will be good for the province, and the government is simply implementing policies recommended by the majority of economists.
You can say that we shouldn't trust economists, but then who are you going to trust? Sure they can be wrong, and sure we have a recent example where the majority of them were wrong in a pretty big way, but they're still the most informed people out there. If we take the rationale that anyone could be wrong so there's no point in trusting anyone, then we wouldn't get anywhere. Governments have to govern, and good governments govern by taking the best available information out there and implementing policies based on it. Bad governments (like the federal conservatives) implement destructive policies (like the GST cuts) that are decried by the majority of people knowledgeable in an area, just to get votes. That's exactly the kind of government I don't want.
If your gut is telling you that the HST will be bad for the economy, that it will cost taxpayers in the long run, and that the government is hiding something, then fine, there's really no possible debate, then. No amount of studies or reports will convince you, and I guess time will simply tell.
You've also gone further than simply stating that you have a right to an opinion (as of course you do), you've stated your opinion, and a part of that opinion was that government "hardly has a track record of honesty" and that therefore we shouldn't believe (or at least should be skeptical about) what they're saying. My point was that it doesn't matter what the government says. Economists are the ones saying that this will be good for the province, and the government is simply implementing policies recommended by the majority of economists.
You can say that we shouldn't trust economists, but then who are you going to trust? Sure they can be wrong, and sure we have a recent example where the majority of them were wrong in a pretty big way, but they're still the most informed people out there. If we take the rationale that anyone could be wrong so there's no point in trusting anyone, then we wouldn't get anywhere. Governments have to govern, and good governments govern by taking the best available information out there and implementing policies based on it. Bad governments (like the federal conservatives) implement destructive policies (like the GST cuts) that are decried by the majority of people knowledgeable in an area, just to get votes. That's exactly the kind of government I don't want.
If your gut is telling you that the HST will be bad for the economy, that it will cost taxpayers in the long run, and that the government is hiding something, then fine, there's really no possible debate, then. No amount of studies or reports will convince you, and I guess time will simply tell.
The_Waffler
Active Member
Fuel, after taxation is factored in, is cheaper in the US than Canada. My thinking is you might be alluding to the cost in Europe, in which case you'd be correct, however I fail to understand how that makes it OK to add yet more tax to such an important staple.
I'm not sure why the fact that I live in a condo would have any affect on my fuel usage.
The_Waffler
Active Member
As this thread is about the HST and condo fee's, I don't think it's an opinion that the HST is bad for condo owners, but rather a fact. Working in the condo industry, I know pretty well what affect this is going to have on maintenance fee's and the cascading affect on all aspects of building maintenance. It is a structural increase that is here to stay. Tax cuts and rebates can disappear quietly with the stroke of a pen, but the burden on condo owners is here to stay.
I've yet to hear of a Government that wasn't almost totally self-serving and only in the business of retaining power at all costs (with the possible exception of Bob Rae and his Provincial NDP Gov't). One flaunts tax cuts to curry favour with the electorate, while the other raises taxes and redistributes the wealth to the same effect. Either way, they're bribing us with our own money. McGuinty has done his best to lay waste to this Province and has presided over Ontario becoming a have-not. That's exactly the kind of Government I don't want.
Hank
Active Member
No, not a fact. It's only a fact if you believe that there will be no long-term benefits to condo owners from the HST (or that the long-term benefits will not outweigh the increase in condo fees). The only thing you could be basing this theory on is your gut instinct, since every economist out there is telling us that this will benefit the province in the long run. As such, see my post above.
Also, how can McGuinty both be "bribing us with our own money" and bringing in a tax that most people are against (as you've stated above)? It doesn't seem particularly "self-serving" to bring in a tax that most people hate and that is more likely to get you voted out. While it is certainly open for people to believe that the HST will be bad for the province (or at least not as beneficial as advertised), I have a hard time seeing how you can base your opposition to McGuinty on the fact that this move is "self-serving" when it is patently anything but.
The_Waffler
Active Member
Because McGuinty is selling it with perceived tax breaks and rebates... you know, our own money.
Please, outline the long term benefits to the HST as far as condo owners are concerned. And dropping the old 600,000 jobs created is not a benefit until they have actually materialized. Governments love to talk about creating jobs, but outside of civil servants, what jobs do they create? I've noted some areas where condos get hit, so please outline where we benefit.
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Hank
Active Member
Despite the tax breaks and rebates, the public is still against it. Ergo, McGuinty must be doing it for some reason other than to curry favour with the public (ie some reason other than getting re-elected, other than being "self serving"). I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.
Also, 600,000 jobs (you left out the estimated $47 billion in new investment and 9% rise in incomes, too, as I assume that you're referring to the Mintz report) isn't a benefit because they haven't materialized yet? What sort of long-term benefits do you expect to have materialized already? If you seriously think that government policies don't have any effect on job creation, then there's not much point discussing this.
Assuming that no condo owners will get any of these new jobs, that none of them currently have jobs to benefit from the increase in wages, that they won't benefit from the wealth created by new business investment in Ontario or from any of the government services that are only affordable because people are working and businesses are successful and paying taxes, then I guess you're right, condo owners are in for some tough times. As a condo owner, I'm worried to hear this.
Anyway, not much more point in debating this. You don't believe the private sector forecasts (and you obviously don't believe government forecasts), so I'm not sure what sort of information you're looking for.
Also, 600,000 jobs (you left out the estimated $47 billion in new investment and 9% rise in incomes, too, as I assume that you're referring to the Mintz report) isn't a benefit because they haven't materialized yet? What sort of long-term benefits do you expect to have materialized already? If you seriously think that government policies don't have any effect on job creation, then there's not much point discussing this.
Assuming that no condo owners will get any of these new jobs, that none of them currently have jobs to benefit from the increase in wages, that they won't benefit from the wealth created by new business investment in Ontario or from any of the government services that are only affordable because people are working and businesses are successful and paying taxes, then I guess you're right, condo owners are in for some tough times. As a condo owner, I'm worried to hear this.
Anyway, not much more point in debating this. You don't believe the private sector forecasts (and you obviously don't believe government forecasts), so I'm not sure what sort of information you're looking for.
The_Waffler
Active Member
Towing the party line there, eh?
PB1
New Member
Are they using a tow truck? Or is someone is not allowing their toes to cross the line?
nfitz
Superstar
Where did I defend being biased? I simply noted that one shouldn't be surprised that people are going to be a bit biased given the (bedroom?) farce that's going on between the Conservative Party of Canada and the Progressive Conservative party of Ontario. We all know the Tories have philosophically been in favour of GST-like taxes for years. And we all know the PC party has no intention of removing the tax if elected. The hypocrisy the PC party are showing is so extreme, that I'm just not surprised that people might react in kind.
As I'm the only person you named in your post, can you point out exactly where I told you to shut your mouth?
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nfitz
Superstar
I was referring to just about every country in the world - other than a few oil-producing nations that subsidize the cost of gas. Virtually every nation is higher; one is lower. You have correctly identified the one that is lower. Given how much that country has failed economically and developmentally, I'm not sure we should be trying to emulate the exception, rather than the rule.
Simply because one is living in a dense neighbourhood, most likely near transit, that you would be less likely to be commuting to work every day. I don't see too many condos in the middle of rural Ontario.
Wooba
Active Member
Please go back and read what you wrote in post #26. You said we should expect some bias against the conservatives. Unfortunately you're right, I should expect it. Pretty sad I think. Same as I can expect bias against the liberals, and against the NDP too. Which isn't helpful and works against the greater good. Nobody (party) is 100% good and nobody is 100% bad but there's far too many people who "tow the party line" instead of calling a spade a spade.
I think you've just proven my point with your posting. It couldn't be more biased. Your obvious dislike of the convservatives has you brining up the provincial party into a topic where they don't belong. I'd be willing to bet if we could turn back time and your party of favour did everything the conservatives have done you'd think it was a good thing.. it's a typical attitude unfortunately..
That was in regards to the comment made by simuls on post 19. The reason I joined this thread to begin with.
nfitz
Superstar
Yes, that's exactly what I said. I also reread it while I replied earlier. I'm not sure what your point is. I think that one can expect it; it doesn't mean it's right.
I think that one can expect thousands of people will be killed by wars this year ... it doesn't mean it's right.
It's very unfortunate that the Conservatives have started this game ... that only leads to simliar actions from others.
It's sad to see Canada governed by such a hate-based party, whose ideological blinders turn debate into hatred. But don't get me wrong - I have supported the PC party federally in the past.
Wooba
Active Member
As I stated before, I'm no fan of this government, but that's an absurd statement to make. There's definitely blinders on someone.....
nfitz
Superstar
I'd say it's on those who don't seem to see the damage that this government has done to political debate in this country by trying to polarize all the issues, and are more interested in political games than good government.