Hank
Active Member
No. Income taxes are going down for everyone that pays income tax, whether you make $15,000/year or $15,000,000/year. As long as you're making over 40K/year you'll be saving about $300 per year in income tax.
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HST will impact condo maintenance fees
- Thread starter dpylyp
- Start date
No. Income taxes are going down for everyone that pays income tax, whether you make $15,000/year or $15,000,000/year. As long as you're making over 40K/year you'll be saving about $300 per year in income tax.
The_Waffler
Active Member
That decrease in income tax (I'm assuming a "gift from McGuinty which will be eliminated slowly over the next few budgets") is more than offset by the HST if you live in a condo.
I spend at least $50 a week on fuel for my personal vehicle, which is roughly $2600 a year. That added 8% hit thanks for the Liberals means that I pay an extra $208 dollars a year, leaving $92 left from that "savings". So, with approximately $17 haircuts a year at $20 a pop, there is another $23.12 gone, leaving $68.88 from that income tax savings. My maintenance fees are going up by $20 (5% increase on top of our typical 6-7% annual increase) a month thanks to the HST, so there is another $240. So that $300 dollar savings is now a negative $171.12. I don't see any savings.
I spend at least $50 a week on fuel for my personal vehicle, which is roughly $2600 a year. That added 8% hit thanks for the Liberals means that I pay an extra $208 dollars a year, leaving $92 left from that "savings". So, with approximately $17 haircuts a year at $20 a pop, there is another $23.12 gone, leaving $68.88 from that income tax savings. My maintenance fees are going up by $20 (5% increase on top of our typical 6-7% annual increase) a month thanks to the HST, so there is another $240. So that $300 dollar savings is now a negative $171.12. I don't see any savings.
nfitz
Superstar
It's also revenue neutral. Income taxes just dropped 1%, and there's a hefty tax credit coming. The costs on some items (such as new vehicles) are estimated to come down. Not sure why this is an issue; I'll be happy to see two tax systems become one. And I'm very happy to see my income taxes come down.
If the biggest complaint is the cost of gasoline going up, then perhaps we should remember that we already have some of the cheapest gasoline, and lowest gasoline prices in the world. Perhaps people who live in condos shouldn't be using much gasoline!
If the biggest complaint is the cost of gasoline going up, then perhaps we should remember that we already have some of the cheapest gasoline, and lowest gasoline prices in the world. Perhaps people who live in condos shouldn't be using much gasoline!
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simuls
Senior Member
This was shoved down McGuinty's throat over the past 3 years by the federal Conservative goverment led by Mike Harris' hack of a financial chief, so let's lay blame where blame is due.
While I'm not a fan of the HST I think we all need to stop bitching about it. We pay about 50% less property taxes than most municipalities in Canada, our electricity is 1/2 the cost in Europe or much of the US - as are most of our utilities and as pointed out above, our gasoline costs are also extremely low compared to most of the developed world. If you're so worried about how the HST is going to affect your bottom line then either a) you shouldn't own a car/condo/whatever because you aren't financially solvent enough to do so or b)you need to rearrange your priorities and adjust what type of lifestyle your income supports.
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Wooba
Active Member
I was not aware that the federal government legislated the Ontario government into implimenting the HST. Maybe I missed the news that day?
That's a silly statement to make. Regardless of the merits of the HST to say we should be grateful because of our lifestyles and should shut up about taxes goes against the very nature of the democracy we live in. We have governments of all levels and all ends of the political spectrum spendning OUR money without a great deal of care. We all have a duty to pay attention to how our leaders are spending it and forcing us to give them more of it.
simuls
Senior Member
Really? You don't remember the war of words between McGuinty and Jim Flaherty when Jim basically said that Ontario was the last place for investing in Canada right now and they should adopt the pro-business HST like many other provinces had? While not legislated the Conservatives did everything they could along with a lot of backroom bullying. Trust me.
I didn't say shut up against taxes in general, I said stop whining against the revenue neutral HST.
Wooba
Active Member
That may well be true.. perhaps probably.. but nothing was forced, or "shoved down" anyones throat. Your posting is so obviously biased that it negates any value it may have.
Why? The government claims that it's revenue neutral, but why should we, the tax payers believe them? They (again, all levels of government) hardly have a track record of honesty now do they? Why is this the magic bullet of truth? I remember when the GST came into effect that it would reduce prices on lots of things that never materialized. Call me synical, but I have to question why a goverment would introduce something that most of the public don't want when on paper it's revenue neutral? It's going to be a tax bonanza for the provincial goverment. Perhaps I'm wrong, but to assume it's all good and not question is is foolish and it's undemocratic for you say what you said because of your beliefs.
lead82
Senior Member
Even if the HST is not revenue neutral, which I believe it wont be, it is still a good, modern and progressive tax. One tax instead of 2 means less bureaucracy, less accounting. Yes we will be paying more for gas, and condo fees, but we will save money on income taxes and get more tax credits for the HST. So overall, as someone pointed out, you may be down slightly if you earn a certain income level or up slightly if you're low income. At the end of the day, it's a consumption tax, thus it can be avoided (unlike income tax). One can reduce their gas usage (get a more efficient vehicle, carpool, chain your trips, take transit), one can reduce electricity usage (condo/utility fees go down), etc..
Remember folks, the HST is meant to save and spur new manufacturing jobs because manufacturing jobs generally pay well (new income earners ==> more taxes to gov't), and create spin-off service jobs.
Remember folks, the HST is meant to save and spur new manufacturing jobs because manufacturing jobs generally pay well (new income earners ==> more taxes to gov't), and create spin-off service jobs.
simuls
Senior Member
If it's something the public don't want, then why hasn't there been more of an outcry and why have the Liberals won every by-election since this issue arose? You'd think if most of the public doesn't want it, they'd say so...and they're not.
I won't even bother to address the undemocratic/my beliefs remark because it's so uninformed and ludicrous a statement.
Wooba
Active Member
Why did the federal Liberals win a second election after the broken promise to remove the GST? Most people like to complain a lot but can't be bothered to actually take action. The minority makes the decisions for the majority because of complacency. It's the Canadian way unfortunately. I am very confident that the majority of Ontario residents do NOT want the HST, informed or not.
As for your last sentence, what a cop out. You must be involved in politics.
nfitz
Superstar
Given how two-sided the Conservatives have been on the issue, with Jim Flaherty proposing and supporting the scheme initially, with his own wife leading the provinical campaign against the Liberals. then surely a bit of bias against the disgraceful Conservative behaviour on the topic should be expected.
Wooba
Active Member
Wow.. I just have to shake my head at what I've read on this thread.
First we've got simuls creating his own "you’re a moron" version of Godwin's Law. Now nfitz you are actually defending being biased? Would you become a member of a jury if you were biased before the trial started? Would you want biased members on a jury if you were accused of something you didn’t do? What's wrong with objectivity? How about we base things on cold hard facts and keep an open mind to stuff.
Look, I'm no fan of the federal conservatives, but I like to call a spade a spade. If the HST turns out to be a good thing for Ontario and its citizens, who are you going to give the credit to, the federal conservatives or the provincial liberals? What if it's a failure, who takes the blame then? I can read propaganda from either side of the fence but the reality is we won't know for sure what the result of the HST will be for many months yet, if not years. Once the results are in I'll be giving the credit or blame to the people who deserve it, the current provincial liberals. My personal belief is that the HST is for the most part bad for the people of Ontario based on past experience and frankly, some basic math. But I'm hoping to be proven wrong. I really resent being told by arrogant people who think they know better than anyone else that I should shut my mouth, especially when they are clearly partisan. I like to participate in democracy thank you very much. And in case you're wondering, I have and continue to write/email/phone my local MP/MPP/Councillor when I have an issue of concern.
First we've got simuls creating his own "you’re a moron" version of Godwin's Law. Now nfitz you are actually defending being biased? Would you become a member of a jury if you were biased before the trial started? Would you want biased members on a jury if you were accused of something you didn’t do? What's wrong with objectivity? How about we base things on cold hard facts and keep an open mind to stuff.
Look, I'm no fan of the federal conservatives, but I like to call a spade a spade. If the HST turns out to be a good thing for Ontario and its citizens, who are you going to give the credit to, the federal conservatives or the provincial liberals? What if it's a failure, who takes the blame then? I can read propaganda from either side of the fence but the reality is we won't know for sure what the result of the HST will be for many months yet, if not years. Once the results are in I'll be giving the credit or blame to the people who deserve it, the current provincial liberals. My personal belief is that the HST is for the most part bad for the people of Ontario based on past experience and frankly, some basic math. But I'm hoping to be proven wrong. I really resent being told by arrogant people who think they know better than anyone else that I should shut my mouth, especially when they are clearly partisan. I like to participate in democracy thank you very much. And in case you're wondering, I have and continue to write/email/phone my local MP/MPP/Councillor when I have an issue of concern.
Hank
Active Member
So by your own calculations, you're only $175 behind after the HST. If that's the worst-case scenario, is that really that bad? An extra $15 a month? You could say that that's a lot of money for lower-income residents, but of course they will be receiving a larger GST/HST credit, so the increase should be minimal for them. And of course, that's only the short-term view. You're ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that overall prices in Atlantic Canada went down after the introduction of the HST there due to the removal of the embedded taxes; it will likely happen here as well. Also, a more competitive commercial environment will mean more businesses locating in Ontario and more jobs in Ontario, which benefits everyone (and really is the whole point of the tax in the first place). Sure, in the short-term, consumers will probably end up paying a bit more for a much larger benefit to businesses, which in the end will benefit everyone.
The government didn't enact the HST because Dalton McGuinty wanted another gold-plated limo; they enacted it because every economist was telling them that it would benefit the province in the long run. If you have the mindset that all governments lie and that everything they do is to raise taxes, then you'll never agree with the HST and there's no point trying to convince you. Even if I didn't believe the government, I believe the third-party economists who universally think that the HST will be beneficial for the province. What reason do they have to lie? They could be wrong, of course, but who else should the government trust when making forecasts?
A government that makes rational policies based on the recommendations of the best minds in a particular area is exactly the kind of government I want to have. The HST is an example of such a policy put forward by such a government, which is why I support it.
The government didn't enact the HST because Dalton McGuinty wanted another gold-plated limo; they enacted it because every economist was telling them that it would benefit the province in the long run. If you have the mindset that all governments lie and that everything they do is to raise taxes, then you'll never agree with the HST and there's no point trying to convince you. Even if I didn't believe the government, I believe the third-party economists who universally think that the HST will be beneficial for the province. What reason do they have to lie? They could be wrong, of course, but who else should the government trust when making forecasts?
A government that makes rational policies based on the recommendations of the best minds in a particular area is exactly the kind of government I want to have. The HST is an example of such a policy put forward by such a government, which is why I support it.
DSC
Superstar
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I completely agree, this is not an obvious 'vote getter' and the fact the Liberals are bringing it in actually increases the liklihood that I will vote for them. The Tories appeared to be in favour of the idea initially but as soon as it was proposed by the Libs they seem to put self-interest first, again. Oppositions should not feel they need to oppose EVERYTHING.
Wooba
Active Member
Hank:
First of all I never gave any calculations to this discussion.
Secondly you've missed the point of why I joined this conversation. I really don't want to debate the good or bad points of the HST. I joined in because I took offence at another member here suggesting because he'd come to the conclusion the HST is a good thing that the rest of us peons should shut our yap. I merely threw in my personal opinion but quite clearly stated I was prepared and hope to be proven wrong, which only time and not bullying/belittling can do.
Regarding the economists, are these the same economists that never saw the financial meltdown coming? Sure there were a few of them who were practically laughed out of their profession but history proved them correct. What's to say that the doubters this time are not correct? Again, only time will tell. But don't dare tell me or anybody else that we shouldn't question the actions of our representatives. It's our right if not our duty.
First of all I never gave any calculations to this discussion.
Secondly you've missed the point of why I joined this conversation. I really don't want to debate the good or bad points of the HST. I joined in because I took offence at another member here suggesting because he'd come to the conclusion the HST is a good thing that the rest of us peons should shut our yap. I merely threw in my personal opinion but quite clearly stated I was prepared and hope to be proven wrong, which only time and not bullying/belittling can do.
Regarding the economists, are these the same economists that never saw the financial meltdown coming? Sure there were a few of them who were practically laughed out of their profession but history proved them correct. What's to say that the doubters this time are not correct? Again, only time will tell. But don't dare tell me or anybody else that we shouldn't question the actions of our representatives. It's our right if not our duty.