High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[innsertnamehere]

sure, they could try and sell that.....they would look like fools trying it though.

I mean it more as a non serious remark, not seriously suggesting they do that. My point was more about how no one track is really needed for a specific service and the need for the 4th track arises because you have freight, GO, and HSR using it not because of just the HSR. the need for the 4th track shouldn't be laid on the HSR service as it has more to do with upgrading the corridor on its own. Apologies, my remark came off a bit crass along with the rest of my post.

Well, one of the benefits that has been listed for this London-KW-Pearson-Union line was the movement of the thousands of students who attend schools in those markets......how many of those do you think come from the largest city in Canada without a University?

Ridership figures can easily be attained without moving into platitudes such as this, and the simple matter is that they aren't completely unserved by it anyway. From my understanding of the project (this is obviously subject to change as more details come out) they will be able to transfer at the airport station or take the 15 minute GO to Kitchener and transfer there to continue to London. I doubt they will be stupid enough to force a Brampton user to go to Union first in order to travel to London. If they do, they rightfully deserve criticism.

The Pearson stop benefits Brampton how? From the few details we have been told, the HSR stop will be at the terminal building, the closest the 15 minute GO service gets to that is Malton....how would someone from Brampton go to London? Take the GO to Union then switch to a train that doubles all the way back on the same track to London?

That is the question of the day now isn't it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pearson Airport connection is really a relocated Malton station (Now at carlingview drive or something) with a People mover extension out to it.

I may be petty but I haven't taken to describing city well on its way to 600k people as a "dam little hamlet" just to sound superior and advance my argument.

Apologies, didn't mean for that to come off as referring to Brampton as a hamlet. What I meant was more along the lines of that a line doesn't need to benefit every community it goes through, or else we would end up with stops at every hamlet. It was meant more to provide a bit of an absurd example of why it may not make sense to have a Brampton station. There is a station very close by (~10km) and paralleling fast, local transit running at high frequencies that can (presumably, subject to change) make that connection fairly easily, at Malton / Pearson or possibly in Kitchener. If they can't make that connection, I too share some concern.

See, here, I think you are carrying over discussions we have had on other threads into this. I have not been harping about AD2W GO in this thread because the provision of 15 minute GO service is part of this service.....I have been wondering how the infrastructure works considering the limitations that have been pointed out to us....but I have taken the announcements on their face....that this HSR happens along with AD2W GO (and in far greater amounts than previously thought).

you brought up benefits to Brampton, so I / someone else brought up AD2W, which you quickly pointed out that Brampton wouldn't get any benefits from that fourth track as only 3 tracks are required for AD2W service. Thus my discussion of AD2W. And yes, I am bringing up AD2W as you have expressed it in other threads, I was trying to equate that to the situation here where you are actively complaining about the (presumed) 4th track through downtown for the HSR. I was showing sympathy and largely trying to tell you that I understand your frustrations with the transit plans on the corridor.

Again you are ascribing words/thoughts to me that I have not even spoken. I doubted that you could get 4 tracks through Brampton.....you pointed out that you could and all you would lose were those two automotive buildings and I did not dispute that....I presume you know better than me so if that is all we lose then so be it......that said, I did suggest that some people will squawk about any disruption for something provides no local benefit....sorry if you thought I was going to be one of the squawkers......I would support it...yes, i would advocate for the train stopping in Brampton but that is a future discussion.

I took your post of "so, for that track, no Brampton would get nothing additional " as a negative response to it, disappointed / upset that Brampton would lose some buildings and have to undergo corridor reconstruction for something that they "would get nothing additional" for. I understood your post as opposition to the HSR concept as it would effect downtown Brampton in a negative way without any rewards. Whether you support it or not, it certainly came across as opposition.

I bowed on any discussion on Guelph....just don't know enough about what is proposed/needed there to offer anything to the discussion.

No worries, I was more just trying to answer your question than start an argument over it. Guelph would receive the same "benefits" that Brampton would, if not less.

 

[dunkalunk]

The plan for Kent St. is well know already. They will close several side streets, leaving only 2 going over the tracks. They will build a overpass/underpass on Edinburgh Road as well as Silvercreek. https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid...ll=43.539496,-80.251994&spn=0.009722,0.019763

I should note, that this is the exact same map I posted earlier and is by no means any official plan. Is there anything else to back this up? In any case, i'm certainly glad it looks like an official enough

 

[scamander24]

I think that having a stop at Brampton for the TO-KW-London train would be beneficial to all the people living in Peel Region. With the potential connection to the Hurontario LRT, it can connect to the many employment centres along Hurontario and around Square One. It can also benefit the many students who live in Peel and study in KW/London. Connecting the 4th largest (and also the 3rd largest via LRT) cities in Ontario to this rail "backbone" can only bring so many benefits.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

As excited as I am for high-speed rail and for transit expansion (especially to KW) in general, I can't help but be a little dismayed that there's a distinction being drawn between this HSR service and AD2W GO. To be honest I think that expanding GO into a regional network taking over travel to places like London and Kingston in southern Ontario (this is a plan that I believe drum118 has reiterated on a few occasions - citing my sources here) would provide a wide range of service unified under one GO umbrella. With electrification and faster EMUs, there's no reason that there couldn't be express trains along an extended GO Kitchener line using AD2W service stopping at a relocated Malton station (with Link train extension to Pearson), Brampton (potentially), KW, and London. I don't see the reasoning behind introducing the separate standard and branding for HSR service.

 

[TOareaFan]

Sorry for the tone of my last response.

I mean it more as a non serious remark, not seriously suggesting they do that. My point was more about how no one track is really needed for a specific service and the need for the 4th track arises because you have freight, GO, and HSR using it not because of just the HSR. the need for the 4th track shouldn't be laid on the HSR service as it has more to do with upgrading the corridor on its own. Apologies, my remark came off a bit crass along with the rest of my post.

Disagree.....the current situation is we have limited GO service, some very limited VIA service and some freight trains. We are being told that to get more GO service with those via and freight services we need 3 tracks. So if we get the GO/freight/VIA/HSR and now need 4 it is very easy to see that the 4th track is laid fully on the HSR...unless you are suggesting there is an option to have the HSR but no full GO service? (then we will have a discussion ).

Ridership figures can easily be attained without moving into platitudes such as this

It is a real factor. Brampton not only is a large population it is one of the youngest demographics in the province.....so we are churning out a lot university aged kids every year....and yes a fair number end up at schools served by this line.....it would be a real shame if they weren't considered in the targeted ridership.

, and the simple matter is that they aren't completely unserved by it anyway. From my understanding of the project (this is obviously subject to change as more details come out) they will be able to transfer at the airport station or take the 15 minute GO to Kitchener and transfer there to continue to London. I doubt they will be stupid enough to force a Brampton user to go to Union first in order to travel to London. If they do, they rightfully deserve criticism.

It is my understanding/interpretation that what KW is getting is hourly express service......and what Brampton is getting is 15 minute GO......I have not gotten the impression that KW is getting both. Surely there is agreement that KW does not need both of these services. So if the 15 minute GO trains are not going to KW and the only other option, then, for anyone in Brampton to use this HSR would be to go towards Toronto and double back.

That is the question of the day now isn't it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pearson Airport connection is really a relocated Malton station (Now at carlingview drive or something) with a People mover extension out to it.

I like your idea on the people mover....I just would not move the Malton station....I would (as I have said elsewhere) just amend/extend the people mover out to Malton. Then you will have rail services on the same corridor that all have train access to the airport.....literally millions of people benefit.

"Plans" are preliminary, I know, but the words being used do not indicate that is the plan.

Apologies, didn't mean for that to come off as referring to Brampton as a hamlet. What I meant was more along the lines of that a line doesn't need to benefit every community it goes through, or else we would end up with stops at every hamlet. It was meant more to provide a bit of an absurd example of why it may not make sense to have a Brampton station. There is a station very close by (~10km) and paralleling fast, local transit running at high frequencies that can (presumably, subject to change) make that connection fairly easily, at Malton / Pearson or possibly in Kitchener. If they can't make that connection, I too share some concern.

I get that trains can't (and shouldn't) stop everywhere....if you go back to the first page of this thread, though, I did ask for examples of lines that link two cities to a major city and pass through another city that has about the same population as the other two combined but don't stop in that intermediate city.

I feel very strongly about this partly because that city, in this case, is being encouraged (by legislation) to grow/intensify/diversify its core by the very government that is proposing to bypass it with this fairly significant piece of infrastructure.....whether I lived here or not....I would think that strange.

you brought up benefits to Brampton, so I / someone else brought up AD2W, which you quickly pointed out that Brampton wouldn't get any benefits from that fourth track as only 3 tracks are required for AD2W service. Thus my discussion of AD2W. And yes, I am bringing up AD2W as you have expressed it in other threads, I was trying to equate that to the situation here where you are actively complaining about the (presumed) 4th track through downtown for the HSR. I was showing sympathy and largely trying to tell you that I understand your frustrations with the transit plans on the corridor.

I think you may have mistaken wondering how it fits with complaining about it.

I took your post of "so, for that track, no Brampton would get nothing additional " as a negative response to it, disappointed / upset that Brampton would lose some buildings and have to undergo corridor reconstruction for something that they "would get nothing additional" for. I understood your post as opposition to the HSR concept as it would effect downtown Brampton in a negative way without any rewards. Whether you support it or not, it certainly came across as opposition.

I think we got twisted in the timing....yes, when I thought there would be more disruption than just a couple of automotive buildings on Neslon Street (i think those were the ones you showed) i would suggest that it did not make sense to disturb a significant amount of DT Brampton for something that was of no benefit to Brampton.....like I said, I moved on when you pointed out it was just those two buildings....if it turns out to be significantly more than that we can discuss if it makes sense at that time.

 

[TFC]

Disclaimer: I regularly take the GO train from Kitchener to Brampton GO, so I am not anti-Brampton.
I hope that whichever firm(s) end up doing the various studies on this line will be able to decipher the types of ridership originating/terminating in each of the markets. If Brampton's market is predominantly commuter traffic to Toronto, then it would be silly to expect thousands of thousands of commuters to use the (presumably more expensive) high speed line rather than the existing GO line (which, upon completion of the Georgetown South Project, will see travel times cut significantly).

That was just an example. I think that economic studies will help determine the finer details to each of the markets, and that the final recommendation will propose stops in cities that have had their stops economically justified based on travel patterns and characteristics.

I also wouldn't take Murray's comments as being set in stone. Transportation professionals will figure out the real details.

 

[diminutive]

All of this is correct. Tech sector leaders in KW (including the director of the Google office in Kitchener) repeat time and time again that inadequate transit from Toronto and from Pearson put a damper on the sector's growth and on its productivity.

This kind of policy thinking can produce bizarre results. First of all, some tech leaders say that. Even if it was a representative opinion, though, what would that really tell us?

Not necessarily much. Tech leaders may be the ones who have to most frequently make marketing pitches in Toronto or somewhere else via Pearson, for instance. The lowly worker though may be more concerned with things like bus service or wtv. Elite opinions may not provide great insights into what projects produce the most rider benefits per unit of investment.

Likewise, if you asked big bank managers in Toronto what projects they'd prioritize, you'd probably get things like Union-Pearson-Express and not something humble like queue jump lanes for the Dufferin Bus.

(As a minor digression, these guys wrote an entire book on the issues which come from elite-centric policy analysis. Obviously we shouldn't ignore what tech leaders or bank CEOs say about something simply by virtue of their position but we should be cautious and recognize how their views may not represent all stakeholders of a given policy.)

Which isn't to prejudge the potential usefulness of a London-KW-Toronto HSR. If costs are low a high(ish) speed service could provide a useful service and divert many trips. I'm skeptical at this point, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[dunkalunk]

What about the Kitchener-London section? Is it worth bypassing New Hamburg, Stratford, and St Mary's to build a true 350km/h right-of-way? (Do you think we'll even get trains this fast?).

 

[TOareaFan]

Disclaimer: I regularly take the GO train from Kitchener to Brampton GO, so I am not anti-Brampton.
I hope that whichever firm(s) end up doing the various studies on this line will be able to decipher the types of ridership originating/terminating in each of the markets. If Brampton's market is predominantly commuter traffic to Toronto, then it would be silly to expect thousands of thousands of commuters to use the (presumably more expensive) high speed line rather than the existing GO line (which, upon completion of the Georgetown South Project, will see travel times cut significantly).

That was just an example. I think that economic studies will help determine the finer details to each of the markets, and that the final recommendation will propose stops in cities that have had their stops economically justified based on travel patterns and characteristics.

I also wouldn't take Murray's comments as being set in stone. Transportation professionals will figure out the real details.

Fair points but the transportation professionals didn't support an extension of the BD subway in Scarborough but politicians (amongst whom were a guy called Murray) decided to double down on a subway.

Transit is far to political in this region and I don't sense it is changing.

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that Bramptonians would take the likely more expensive HSR train to Toronto on most days (full disclosure...some days I just wanna get home so fast that i probably would take it home on occasion...just as I have on occasion taken the 5:40 VIA over the 5:45 GO...but that is rare).....but the value of a Brampton spot would be connecting us to KW and London......those schools, those high tech jobs....those cultural events.....if I were the employers/governments of KW/London I would wonder why a city of (by that time) over 600k people would not be a target audience for the line.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The question is if the travel patterns of those Brampton commuters include large amounts of travel to K-W and London, and if there is a way to otherwise accommodate that connection in some way that is an improvement over a transfer at Union. Bramptons commuting patterns are probably largely contained within the GTA, mostly to downtown, York Region, and Mississauga.

 

[TOareaFan]

The question is if the travel patterns of those Brampton commuters include large amounts of travel to K-W and London, and if there is a way to otherwise accommodate that connection in some way that is an improvement over a transfer at Union. Bramptons commuting patterns are probably largely contained within the GTA, mostly to downtown, York Region, and Mississauga.

Commuters, I would agree.....but would that change if they now had access to the nifty jobs in the tech sector in KW? What about those students? What about a train headed for a stop at an airport passing by a city of that size?

From my quick read of that study proposing better rail links most of the inbound commuters to KW seemed to be from Guelph...so there did not seem to be a high expectation of a lot of commuters from the GTA....but other kinds of travel seemed to justify the whole thing.

The thing I don't get (and the one that points out this is probably just rushed/poorly thought out at this time) is what happens to Guelph? Is it part of the 15 minute GO service? It does not seem to be part of the HSR service? So if KW is not part of the 15 GO service but is part of the HSR and Guelph is the opposite, how does this foster better links between those cities?

 

[TFC]

Fair points but the transportation professionals didn't support an extension of the BD subway in Scarborough but politicians (amongst whom were a guy called Murray) decided to double down on a subway.

Transit is far to political in this region and I don't sense it is changing.

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that Bramptonians would take the likely more expensive HSR train to Toronto on most days (full disclosure...some days I just wanna get home so fast that i probably would take it home on occasion...just as I have on occasion taken the 5:40 VIA over the 5:45 GO...but that is rare).....but the value of a Brampton spot would be connecting us to KW and London......those schools, those high tech jobs....those cultural events.....if I were the employers/governments of KW/London I would wonder why a city of (by that time) over 600k people would not be a target audience for the line.

I agree with you about the BD subway issue. The political nature of urban/transportation planning is the shittiest part of the job, as you'll propose something based on the facts, only to have that proposal recreated by a politician looking to score points. I don't agree with using Brampton's population as the key selling point, as it doesn't paint a true picture of travel/commute patterns, but I am surprised that this line is proposed to by-pass Brampton.
I would wait and see what sort of travel times we can expect with upgrades to the line between Georgetown and Kitchener. It currently takes ~1 hour 15 minutes to travel between Kitchener and Brampton GO stations, but improvements to the tracks could cut that time down. Also, any "Kitchener express" trains that government officials speak of will very likely be those that make every station stop from Kitchener to Bramalea, and then complete the rest of the trip as an express. Smallspy provided us with some great info in another thread about the time savings that can be expected once the GTS project is completed, and the travel times proposed would likely see express trains between Bramalea and Union. I know that GO isn't stupid enough to have their trains pass Brampton entirely on their way to Kitchener.

 

[mpd618]

With electrification and faster EMUs, there's no reason that there couldn't be express trains along an extended GO Kitchener line using AD2W service stopping at a relocated Malton station (with Link train extension to Pearson), Brampton (potentially), KW, and London. I don't see the reasoning behind introducing the separate standard and branding for HSR service.

Everything so far seems consistent with "High Speed Rail" just being express runs on an upgraded corridor. High speed rail is attractive as a concept when selling the idea to the public, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would be operated separately.

Not necessarily much. Tech leaders may be the ones who have to most frequently make marketing pitches in Toronto or somewhere else via Pearson, for instance. The lowly worker though may be more concerned with things like bus service or wtv. Elite opinions may not provide great insights into what projects produce the most rider benefits per unit of investment.

The tech leaders I'm referencing speak specifically of talent attraction and retention. The Pearson connection may be more of an "elite" thing, related to business travel to New York, San Francisco, etc. - but I'd argue that the quality of the link to financial hubs and to offices in cities outside Ontario matters quite a bit to the broader public, even if the travel isn't done by low-level employees.

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree with you about the BD subway issue. The political nature of urban/transportation planning is the shittiest part of the job, as you'll propose something based on the facts, only to have that proposal recreated by a politician looking to score points. I don't agree with using Brampton's population as the key selling point, as it doesn't paint a true picture of travel/commute patterns, but I am surprised that this line is proposed to by-pass Brampton.
I would wait and see what sort of travel times we can expect with upgrades to the line between Georgetown and Kitchener. It currently takes ~1 hour 15 minutes to travel between Kitchener and Brampton GO stations, but improvements to the tracks could cut that time down. Also, any "Kitchener express" trains that government officials speak of will very likely be those that make every station stop from Kitchener to Bramalea, and then complete the rest of the trip as an express. Smallspy provided us with some great info in another thread about the time savings that can be expected once the GTS project is completed, and the travel times proposed would likely see express trains between Bramalea and Union. I know that GO isn't stupid enough to have their trains pass Brampton entirely on their way to Kitchener.

sorry, i thought we were discussing the whole new idea of a HSR from London to Toronto with only 4 station stops (London, Kitchener, Pearson, Union) not some of the GO trains running express.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I agree with you about the BD subway issue. The political nature of urban/transportation planning is the shittiest part of the job, as you'll propose something based on the facts, only to have that proposal recreated by a politician looking to score points. I don't agree with using Brampton's population as the key selling point, as it doesn't paint a true picture of travel/commute patterns, but I am surprised that this line is proposed to by-pass Brampton.
I would wait and see what sort of travel times we can expect with upgrades to the line between Georgetown and Kitchener. It currently takes ~1 hour 15 minutes to travel between Kitchener and Brampton GO stations, but improvements to the tracks could cut that time down. Also, any "Kitchener express" trains that government officials speak of will very likely be those that make every station stop from Kitchener to Bramalea, and then complete the rest of the trip as an express. Smallspy provided us with some great info in another thread about the time savings that can be expected once the GTS project is completed, and the travel times proposed would likely see express trains between Bramalea and Union. I know that GO isn't stupid enough to have their trains pass Brampton entirely on their way to Kitchener.

Murray already said the HSR is not stopping in Brampton.