High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[reaperexpress]

GO RER has not been built yet and until it is it makes no sense to siphon money into fancy HSR. We need the money to build the base network to connect as many towns and cities by frequent rail service. Then HSR makes sense to build. Until VIA has jam packed trains running hourly between Toronto and Ottawa/Montreal, there is no market for HSR that would justify its cost.

I totally agree with you, but not about that corridor. This is exactly my thought west of Toronto, where the population is distributed in a number of cities of 300 000 - 500 000 people spaced around 20 - 80 km apart. The best bang-for-the buck is to invest in Regional rail, which will improve Intercity rail as a side-effect.

But from Toronto to Montreal, it's 550 km with just Ottawa (1M) and Kingston (300k) along the way. Given that any form of frequent service would require infrastructure investment to the tune of billions of dollars, we might as well invest in dedicated passenger infrastructure (i.e. HSR). Continuing to invest in CN lines will continue to result in conflicts which reduce speed (45mph to switch tracks) as well as reliability. Shared freight/passenger lines are also more expensive to maintain and operate because of the wear caused by heavy freight trains, and the longer trip times (larger fleet requirement, higher personnel costs and lower revenue).

 

[mpd618]

However, if fast "HSR lite" GO RER express trains can make the Kitchener-Toronto trip faster than a "best case drive" such as approximately 45mins, that makes KW another bedroom community for Toronto, and dramatically increases ridership, fills the trains, and warrants electricification all the way to London (as well as gradual track upgrades for faster trains to raise the speed limit gradually).

This isn't a new point, but arguably it's Toronto that would be the bedroom community for KW's tech sector if there were really good train service to Kitchener. Google is building a new 1000-or-so person office right next to the King/Victoria transit hub site, and even now it has many people commuting from Toronto. Downtown Kitchener is being taken over by tech start-ups and established tech companies, but growth is constrained because for many tech industry people, living in a small city would be a deal-breaker.

 

[ehlow]

This isn't a new point, but arguably it's Toronto that would be the bedroom community for KW's tech sector if there were really good train service to Kitchener. Google is building a new 1000-or-so person office right next to the King/Victoria transit hub site, and even now it has many people commuting from Toronto. Downtown Kitchener is being taken over by tech start-ups and established tech companies, but growth is constrained because for many tech industry people, living in a small city would be a deal-breaker.

I wonder how popular a commute this would be. Even for those living downtown, it would probably take 10-30 min for many to get to Union station by TTC (including walking, transit, waiting). Then the high speed train is 45 min. Including wait/transfer time and walking it would still be at least a 1 hour or more likely 1.5 hour one way trip for someone living in or near downtown and working in KW, assuming the office is near the GO station in Kitchener. Still much better than driving of course since you can work (or sleep) on the train, but still a long commute.

Or is it more practical to for the KW tech companies to have satellite offices in downtown Toronto? I already see that some of of the successful KW tech companies have done so in places like King & Spadina.

 

[crs1026]

This debate should be about ridership demand that we want, or can't avoid, rather than inventing fantasy markets to build a case for HSR. Why would we be happy if students (or workers) lived in Toronto and worked or studied in KW, so far away?

Hypothetically - Say a market of 10,000 people a day - if we paid them each a living allowance of $10K per year to find an apartment in Waterloo - that's only $100M per year - it would take 30 years to break even on an HSR line costing $30B. My numbers are pulled out of thin air, yes, but you get my point.

Make it an hour trip, or an hour twenty, and the demand will still be there, but capital costs will be much lower, and car competitive. No offense to students, but their time is relatively cheap.

There is undoubtedly a large number of commuters (mostly auto based) using KW-Cambridge as a bedroom community and working in the central GTA. And there is a non-commuter demand - people making day trips, attending business meetings, as well as good old fashioned 'travel to see the grandkids'. It would be good economics to also foster a reverse-flow of students and workers into KW using good rail transit. But hopefully not doing a daily commute of such a long distance. I wonder, too, how extending GO to Cambridge, and upgrading to 2-way-all-day, would compare to the Guelph line for ridership demand. Is Kitchener able to handle a heavy volume of commuters coming downtown to catch the train to Toronto? Maybe a GO station on the east side of Cambridge would be attractive, at least for those in the south end of KW. Much cheaper than HSR.

- Paul


- Paul

 

[mdrejhon]

I wonder how popular a commute this would be. Even for those living downtown, it would probably take 10-30 min for many to get to Union station by TTC (including walking, transit, waiting). Then the high speed train is 45 min. Including wait/transfer time and walking it would still be at least a 1 hour or more likely 1.5 hour one way trip for someone living in or near downtown and working in KW, assuming the office is near the GO station in Kitchener. Still much better than driving of course since you can work (or sleep) on the train, but still a long commute.

Still faster than a whole lot of TTC commutes too. Also, the big condo booms at Liberty and downtown, some in Kitchener-waterloo, well as some of the corridor stations, will fill some demand as well. Ongoing densification will be enough to warrant a 2030s HSR, methinks. There will be demand bidirectionally too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Still faster than a whole lot of TTC commutes too. Also, the big condo booms at Liberty and downtown, some in Kitchener-waterloo, well as some of the corridor stations, will fill some demand as well. Ongoing densification will be enough to warrant a 2030s HSR, methinks. There will be demand bidirectionally too.

Except....every discussion/"plan" I have seen for HSR does not have stops in between.

So....looking at the "plan" Minister Murray put forward which is, notionally, what this thread is about has to generate ridership from Kitchener, Pearson and Union......that's it ( oh, forgot that he threw in London as an afterthought)

 

[jamincan]

I personally think a stop at Bramalea would make sense, or otherwise have parking at the Pearson stop. This would make it far more useful for people heading west from Toronto.

Regarding satellite offices in Toronto: I may be mistaken but the examples I know of are not development offices but more geared toward sales and marketing.

 

[mdrejhon]

Except....every discussion/"plan" I have seen for HSR does not have stops in between.

No, but it's still the same ROW and electricification. There are many commonalities along sections of this route between GO RER, SmartTrack, UPX *and* HSR. If it were all separate, that's 8 tracks along the same corridor! So at least some of that will share some infrastructure.

I'm pretty sure they aren't likely to go for the "luxury" 350kph HSR option that requires a dedicted ROW just for the HSR.

 

[nfitz]

Except....every discussion/"plan" I have seen for HSR does not have stops in between.

Every HSR implementation I've ever seen does have stops in between. You might well have express trains that don't stop. But you also have other very fast trains, that do stop.

And in some cases, you even have commuter services!

For example, in the UK - this is a commuter train that runs on the HSR line from London to Channel Tunnel:


It can run up to 225 km/hr (on the same track that express trains operate at 300 km/hr. Service from St. Pancras to Ebbsfleet is every 15 minutes (off-peak), and every 30 minutes to Ashford International. The service splits become 3 different routes with trains running then over conventional tracks every 30 minutes to Chatham, and every 60 minutes to Folkestone and Canterbury.

The commute time from London to Canterbury is down 105 minutes to only 56 minutes now. Imagine Chaucer's horror! The Canterbury Tales would have to be the Canterbury Tweets these days ...

 

[TOareaFan]

Every HSR implementation I've ever seen does have stops in between. You might well have express trains that don't stop. But you also have other very fast trains, that do stop.

And in some cases, you even have commuter services!

For example, in the UK - this is a commuter train that runs on the HSR line from London to Channel Tunnel:


It can run up to 225 km/hr (on the same track that express trains operate at 300 km/hr. Service from St. Pancras to Ebbsfleet is every 15 minutes (off-peak), and every 30 minutes to Ashford International. The service splits become 3 different routes with trains running then over conventional tracks every 30 minutes to Chatham, and every 60 minutes to Folkestone and Canterbury.

The commute time from London to Canterbury is down 105 minutes to only 56 minutes now. Imagine Chaucer's horror! The Canterbury Tales would have to be the Canterbury Tweets these days ...

Sorry, my comment should have said "Except....every discussion/"plan" I have seen for this HSR does not have stops in between."

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yes it does, GO RER runs in the same corridor.

 

[ssiguy2]

Except....every discussion/"plan" I have seen for HSR does not have stops in between.

So....looking at the "plan" Minister Murray put forward which is, notionally, what this thread is about has to generate ridership from Kitchener, Pearson and Union......that's it ( oh, forgot that he threw in London as an afterthought)

I do {or at least hope not} London was an "afterthought".

Greater London has half a million people, a major government and health centre, the SW undisputed regional capitol, and home to two of Ontario's largest universities and colleges. London is a rail hub and despite the cutbacks and slow service, London remains Canada's forth busiest rail station. The amount of transport traffic on the 401 between Woodstock and London is massive and the highway is going to be nearing capacity with 20 years. Regardless of HSR something has to get done to relieve the traffic to London and getting Londoners to a fast Toronto connection. If the HSR doesn't go thru in some form then the 402 will have to be extended past Strathroy and across to Woodstock to 401/403 interchange or further north to KW with a KW bypass to the 401.

Northern London is the fastest growing part of the city and getting to the 401 is near impossible as London has very heavy and slow moving traffic due to not having any urban expressways. Many in northern London/UWO now go to Toronto via Stratford/KW as it is faster than getting to the 401.

Whether it's a 402/403 extension, a new freeway to KW with a bypass to the 401, or a new {and very expensive} London N/S hook up with the 401 and then a further widening of the 401 to Woodstock, something has to get done.

Also there is a matter of politics and fair play here. Londoners and all SW Ontarians will not only be offended but down right furious if a HSR line stops at KW. As far as people in the SW are concerned KW is now part of Toronto as is Hamilton. Theey maybe cities in their own right {especially Hamilton} but they are increasingly seen as nothing more than bedroom communities of the city that's eating the rest of the province.

They would be rightly infuriated if yet more free infrastructure money goes to Toronto and again the SW gets nothing especially after being promised the line. Windsorites often say that Ontario ends at London and are made as hell they are not getting a HSR line so imagine how Londoners will feel. Also London and Windsor are battleground cities both provincially and federally and both tend to vote centre-left which is a voting base Wynne needs to keep and Harper needs to switch.

 

[waterloowarrior]

News Release
http://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2014/12/ontario-moving-forward-with-high-speed-rail.html
Ontario Moving Forward With High-Speed Rail
Province Improving Public Transportation, Creating Jobs
December 5, 2014 11:00 A.M.Ministry of Transportation

Ontario is taking the next step to build a high-speed rail line that will connect Windsor, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, and Toronto, which will improve travel options, reduce travel time and create jobs by getting people moving.

The start of an environmental assessment (EA) marks the next phase of the project, which includes identifying the most appropriate route, examining state-of-the-art transportation technology options and an environmental impact evaluation.

The EA will be guided by consultations in early 2015 with municipal and business groups, as well as with First Nation and Métis communities.

High-speed rail service connecting Windsor, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, and Toronto is part of the government's long-term transit and infrastructure plan, Moving Ontario Forward. This plan will make nearly $29 billion available over the next 10 years for investments in priority infrastructure projects across the province, including public transit, roads, bridges and highways.

Building public transportation is part of the government's economic plan for Ontario. The four part plan is building Ontario up by investing in people's talents and skills, building new public infrastructure like roads and transit, creating a dynamic, supportive environment where business thrives, and building a secure savings plan so everyone can afford to retire.

Quick Facts
With a planned stop at Toronto Pearson International Airport, the high-speed rail line will better connect communities across Ontario, and will help connect southwestern Ontario businesses with the global economy.
On Dec. 5, 2014, the Minister of Transportation met with the Mayor of London as well as key business leaders to discuss the latest plans. Discussions also took place with business partners in London’s technology industry, such as Big Blue Bubble, Big Viking Games, Inner Geek Inc., TD Canada Trust, Voices.com, and members of the Small Business Centre, the London Chamber of Commerce and the London Economic Development Corporation.
Since October 2003, Ontario has committed approximately $295 million for transit, highway infrastructure, municipal roads and bridges and other municipal capital projects in the City of London.

 

[rbt]

... Métis communities.

My wifes family lived on a reserve for half a decade. This makes me quite nervous about the project going ahead.

 

[ehlow]

Wow something is actually happening? Great news everybody!!!!