High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[crs1026]

I suspect that St Marys and Stratford would be happy with two or three stopping trains a day, even if the remainder are express trains that don’t stop anywhere along the line. The issue for St Marys is whether VIA will retain any service at all. Stratford has good reason to join forces to seek a commitment to continued if not better service, but that doesn’t have to happen at the expense of the express line.
Be careful comparing Guelph to Kitchener.... VIA is quite happy to reduce service to Kingston if it gets HFR. Kingston will also have to advocate if it wants more than skeleton service.
If the new line sounds impactful, take a look at how the current line cuts through Baden, New Hamburg, and St Marys.... and extrapolate to faster and more frequent service, and population/traffic growth in those locations. The proposed line is a “bypass” of sorts. It will mitigate the impacts of HxR to more people in these communities than it will create new impacts in rural areas.
Lastly, CN’s renewed interest in the Stratford line as part of its freight network is significant. It argues for putting passenger on its own line to remove conflict between freight and passenger.
I agree that HSR is an extravagant overkill, where a midrange quality will do. But a new alignment may be a prudent move, before more development happens that will make it more complicated to plan a route.

- Paul

 

[muller877]

you put out your opinion again and again but the primary focus of this line (and most of it's cost) isn't actually getting to London. It's getting to Waterloo. Getting from Waterloo to London is actually easy and quite cheap, just a straight new build corridor with no major bridges, structures, or grade separations. Getting to Waterloo requires massive upgrades through Guelph, Brampton, Georgetown, etc.

Turning this project into a southern corridor direct to london may indeed cut costs, but it also cuts out most of the benefits of connecting Pearson and Waterloo.

The problem is most people are lumping in 2 project.

Getting from KW to Pearson to Union via HSR
and
Getting from London to Toronto

Then they lump it saying London needs to get to Pearson. How many people in London live close enough to the train station want to get to Pearson (or KW)? Where is the study on this? What is the total benefit? If none, is it cheaper to go via Hamilton or KW? Spending billions more on a few hundred riders to get to Pearson? Is it worth it?

I totally get building to KW (with some sort of link to Pearson).

 

[innsertnamehere]

The question is whether it is worth building 2 different links - especially if with one link you can provide London-Waterloo service, which isn't ideal in terms of driving today with the 401 dipping so far south, adding lots of travel time.

 

[steveintoronto]

VIA is quite happy to reduce service to Kingston if it gets HFR. Kingston will also have to advocate if it wants more than skeleton service.

KINGSTON – City council threw its support behind a multi-billion dollar plan to build a dedicated passenger train line through southern Ontario and Quebec.

Councillors voted in favour of a motion to support VIA Rail’s high frequency rail proposal despite the fact that the new passenger service would not pass through the city.

VIA Rail’s proposed $5.25-billion high frequency rail line would connect Windsor, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City.

Mayor Bryan Paterson said he recently met with VIA Rail’s chief executive officer Yves Desjardins-Siciliano and came away from that meeting assured that train service to Kingston would improve under the new plan.

“I am convinced this is in Kingston’s best interests,” Paterson said.

Paterson said Kingston would become a “hub” on the existing rail line that carries passenger and freight trains and there would be improved service to the city, especially in the early morning and late afternoon.

The city’s motion called for the federal and Ontario governments to financially support the high-frequency rail project.

Last month, an almost identical resolution from the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus (EOWC) was endorsed by Frontenac County council. [...]

http://www.thewhig.com/2017/08/09/city-council-supports-via-rail-expansion

Kingston Mayor Bryan Paterson delivers transport-heavy “State of the City” address
https://globalnews.ca/news/3960314/...rs-transport-heavy-state-of-the-city-address/

 

[crs1026]

^ The VIA HFR pitch says that the result of HFR will be a subsidy free corridor.

The Kingston service currently is subsidised, and HFR will remove the largest slice of revenue from the Kingston route, causing need for subsidy to increase.

The only possible result is Kingston service being cut back, in terms of both frequency and track speed/trip time.

Once the through trains move to another route, CN will no longer have either economic or reputational motivation to keep the service moving.

By what logic does the Mayor think that Kingston will retain good rail service?

Sorry, this remains a hopelessly empty promise IMHO.

What am I missing? (except trust, of course!)

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

What am I missing? (except trust, of course!)

The hub model, been discussed at length here and on-line. Not surprisingly, the logistics of Kingston will change with HFR.

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VIA Rail upgrades Kingston service: the making of a regional hub
Posted on May 5, 2016

provided by VIA Rail, showing Kingston as a regional service hub

Last week the President and CEO of VIA Rail, Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, was in Kingston to discuss the future of passenger rail service across the country and the exciting enhancements we will see in our local service, into and out of Kingston.

Currently, VIA Rail service in Kingston is restricted both by limited track space for passenger trains and because Kingston is currently only an intermediate stop on Toronto-Montreal and Toronto-Ottawa lines. I’m excited to share with you how this is going to change thanks to the announcement made last week!

In 2019 VIA Rail plans to introduce a new dedicated track for passenger rail along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor by taking over existing under-utilized freight tracks. This change alone will bring three times as many trains per day; this of course means better schedules with more travel options.

Also part of the service enhancement announcement is the plan to make Kingston a new rail service hub. In this new model Kingston will be the Southeastern Ontario service hub with trains originating from Kingston every morning en route to Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa, and ending each evening in Kingston. This means Kingston residents will now be able to, for example, take the train to an early morning meeting in Ottawa, or take a late train back to Kingston after dinner and a show in Toronto.

To grow our local economy we need better transportation links to make it easier for people to get to and from Kingston. That’s why the expansion of our airport is important and that’s why I’m so pleased to be able to work with VIA Rail to improve rail connections to Kingston.

https://mayorpaterson.com/2016/05/0...ingston-service-the-making-of-a-regional-hub/

 

[crs1026]

The hub model, been discussed at length here and on-line. Not surprisingly, the logistics of Kingston will change with HFR.

I get that. One train out of Kingston in the morning to each of Ottawa, Montreal, and Toronto, A return trip in the evening. Perhaps a second trio that leave the three points first thing in the AM, arriving in Kingston earliest, and departing later in the day.

Compare that with today’s schedule and ridership. Is that a gain?

Will these hub trains cover their cost? If not, how will costs be covered once the subsidy is withdrawn? (Hint: the HFR investors are unlikely to allow proceeds of their profitable routes to cross subsidise Kingston service)

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Will these hub trains cover their cost? If not, how will costs be covered once the subsidy is withdrawn? (Hint: the HFR investors are unlikely to allow proceeds of their profitable routes to cross subsidise Kingston service)

What VIA route doesn't already require a subsidy? Your line of argument is moot. HFR, if implemented as touted, may also require an *operating* subsidy to allow VIA to lease space on it.

I get that. One train out of Kingston in the morning to each of Ottawa, Montreal, and Toronto, A return trip in the evening. Perhaps a second trio that leave the three points first thing in the AM, arriving in Kingston earliest, and departing later in the day.

The proposed schedule was posted and discussed at length in the VIA string. It's a lot more than what you claim. I'll dig for that later. And the dedicated dailies Toronto to Kingston are already crammed.

[...]
Stops are determined based on a combination of market demand and the need to offer shorter trip times than car travel. VIA Rail’s HRF project will allow for more stops between Toronto and Kingston, including Guildwood and Port Hope. It will also offer more options between Cornwall and Toronto by using both the current line and the planned HFR line through a connection at Smith Falls. Finally the HFR project will transform Kingston into a hub with more departures throughout the day to and from Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal. [...]

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/About_VIA/APM_2017_QA_FINAL_EN.pdf

 

[TOareaFan]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...speed-rail-disrupt-wildlife-1.4629941?cmp=rss

 

[mdrejhon]

The hub model, been discussed at length here and on-line. Not surprisingly, the logistics of Kingston will change with HFR.

https://mayorpaterson.com/2016/05/0...ingston-service-the-making-of-a-regional-hub/

That is a great idea, that hits multiple birds with one stone:
- Kingston loses out on HFR having been bypassed via the Peterborough route
- Since train service is not discontinued in Kingston, this is an opportunity to reinvent existing Kingston service
- Making Kingston a hub shortens the existing milkrun train routes, making them more predictable to freight schedules
- Since Kingston becomes a hub for now-faster-and-more-predictable milkrun trains, this a net win for Kingston instead of a net loss

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Doug has said he supports HSR between London and Toronto, right now on CP24 at the kitchener press conference.

 

[raptor]

Doug has said he supports HSR between London and Toronto, right now on CP24 at the kitchener press conference.

Easy for him to support a project that won't see shovels in the ground during his term. What I'm really interested to know if he supports RER...

 

[rbt]

Easy for him to support a project that won't see shovels in the ground during his term. What I'm really interested to know if he supports RER...

Indeed.

 

[muller877]

Doug has said he supports HSR between London and Toronto, right now on CP24 at the kitchener press conference.

He said he approves proceeding with an EA. Not yes to HSR (per the KW Record)

He also said he would remove the red tape and put the pedal to the metal for commuter service to Kitchener.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

remove the red tape

There has to be red tape to remove to actually remove it. Right now CN and it's freight service is the only thing holding back the project.