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Harper's Management Style and Lebanon

There's a lot of Israel/U.S. bashing here, which means I have to question the objectivity of most of the opinions expressed. In my experience, 'moderation' is hardly a term I would apply to either side in this conflict. The behaviour of both sides is shameful and disgusting, and they both need to get their act together before dragging the rest of the world into their backyard squabble. Religion, oy!
 
Ok, you caught us. I have nothing but hate for Israel and the US, so I can not be objective. I want nothing more than to see my good buddies, the violent terrorists, to win and drive the US and Israel into the sea. :rolleyes

Though the US is doing a mighty fine job of driving itself into the sea, see Katrina and global warming. :p



Of course there's plently blame to go around to all sides. Two wrongs does not make a right, especially when the response is to do seven or eight times the damage. I want to see a fair solution worked out and peace brought back to the region. All people should have a right to live and work in peace, with a reasonable chance of improving their lives.
 
I can't blame Israel for what it's now doing. I would have done the same. I imagine this is what the Hizbolah fellows wanted, as their purpose was gone, and when you're a thug, but have no cause, you must either go back to your original employment or lack thereof, or restart a new battle.

Yes Israel is a democracy, but not everything that democratic governments do is automatically right. Yes Hezbollah "occupies" portions of Lebanon, and most certainly does not have the support of the Lebanese population as a whole. Also, Hezbollah does not have support among the governments of many Arab nations either. You can hear the silence from Egypt and Jordan, for example.

The wholesale destruction of parts of Lebanon, the deaths and injuries of large numbers of civilians and the creation of a refugee crisis hardly solve the problem of Hezbollah. If anything, it legitimates Hezbollah among some people. And in the long run that will carry the problem ino the future.
 
"Of course there's plently blame to go around to all sides. Two wrongs does not make a right, especially when the response is to do seven or eight times the damage."

Interesting justification: "okay, i'm going to bomb you first but you better not hit me harder when you bomb back, cause that's unfair!"
 
I wonder if people would call The United States reaction to Pearl Harbour measured. - If we are putting this war into context, the Israelis are going above and beyond the call of duty in responding to the terrorist acts of Heziballah.

I wonder if people would call the United Kingdoms reaction to the bombing of London by German V-2 rockets measured. If we are putting this war into context Israel at least gives fair warning to civilians/and Heziballah about when airstrikes are impending.

I never liked Steven Harper until he did the right thing. And stood up for Israel's right to defend itself from terrorists. Terrorists that use civilians as cover because they are giant cowards. Terrorist who then use those dead and wounded civilians as world media propaganda. Terrorist who also target Israeli civilians with absolutely no world condemation, no outratge.And a world public so stupid they cant see past this stupid game that the terrorist are playing right in front of their eyes.
 
Imstability in the Middle East is good for business(oil). Business is the bottom line and not world diplmacy for Harper.
 
Caltrane,

Navigating the legitimacy of actions in war, particulalrly with respect to the impact on civilian populations, is always fraught with moral questions - if one bothers to ask them (and we should). That is one reason why there is typically an overwhelming amount of propaganda, intentional or otherwise, during times of war: to convince populations, at that time, that war is right, moral, necessary and that that those opposed are wrong and worthy of suspicion. There is a concerted effort to cover over the fact that huge numbers of people are being killed, and this can be done by converting those people into "others," or the "enemy" or any other label that serves as a wedge to distinguish or diminish their lives. It is an age-old act. You can even find this in the bible.

There are plenty of actions carried out during past wars that deserve a serious accounting, otherwise how will we will ever learn? You raise good questions about Pearl Harbour or the bombing of London; but what of the fire bombings of Hamburg and Tokyo, or the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A vast majority of the dead were civilians, many of whom had been convinced of the "rightness" of the war, not on the basis that the war would bring them physical improvements, but on the basis of unquestioned beliefs. Those who bombed them lived with the same thoughts, convinced that it was the right thing to do because the people below were the "enemy." Populations became nameless and faceless, ceased to be individual human persons, and the numbers killed eventually defeated the mental capacity to comprehend what those numbers actually made reference to.

The desire to set some adequate "measure" is realistic, but keep in mind it is always subjective: it depends if you are doing the bombing or being bombed, or choose to see the "rightness" of that bombing. Remember that we are still talking only about thoughts and ideas, not about the lives being affected or obliterated by the actions generated by those ideas. There is a difference between numbers on a piece of paper and shattered lives. If wholesale destruction of populations is the only perceived means to curtailing or eliminating feared ideologies, then we will find ourselves on a slippery slope towards mass murder and genocide. We may not think it possible, but there is always a probability for this sort of thing. History gives us the evidence.

If we think a different thought, we may see a different thing.
 
I just don't understand what is the issue here re. Harper's comments on Israel. The one well-working democracy in the Middle East is attacked by terrorists in Lebanon. Lebanon refuses to remove them, and the attacks continue. Israel strikes back, as should any country.

Israel's response was, at the time of Harper's speach, a measured response. No, this isn't a case of tit for tat, where if you shoot one missile at me, I get to shoot one at you. No, this is a case of if you shoot one missile at me, I'll destroy you. That's still a measured response. If Israel's aim was to kill as many Lebanese as possible, there would be tens of thousands of dead in Lebanon, not hundreds.

I think Harper will still win a strong majority. I also believe that Arab and Muslim communities are in no way the target electorate of the Conservative Party. This group, much like the Italian and Indo-Pakistani areas north of the city will almost always vote Liberal by default. This is the reason Harper will ignore most of the GTA during the next election.
 
Actually, Lebanon is also one of the few working democracies in the region. We might not like the elected government, but it is indeed elected by popular vote.

AoD
 
I think Harper will still win a strong majority. I also believe that Arab and Muslim communities are in no way the target electorate of the Conservative Party. This group, much like the Italian and Indo-Pakistani areas north of the city will almost always vote Liberal by default.

1. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

2. Italian and Indo-Pakistani populations are not necessarily loyal to the Liberals. Brampton elected two South Asians as PCs, Vaughan elected Al Palladini (and is no Liberal bastion these days either).

3. It's not smart politics to back one country because those you may further alienate are not "the target electorate", especially as that segment is growing quickly, and is now much larger than the Jewish population (which isn't uniformly in support of Harper either).
 
I think Harper will still win a strong majority.

Unless Harper suddenly starts to pay attention to Ontario (not likely) his success lies in Quebec. And right now, polls are showing that he is not making any inroads. Basically it will come down to how well he can bribe Quebec (or as him and Charest refer to it, 'fixing the fiscal imbalance'). If he cannot make that happen, he will have little chance after that of gaining even a single seat. It is always at the very least fun to watch the federal government try to play nice with Quebec and the inevitable break down that occurs afterwards.
 
From what I hear, the Tories don't have a lot of seats to pick up in Quebec. They picked up all the easy (gettable) seats in Quebec in January. So, pissing off Ontario may well turn out to be a bad strategy. It seems Harper is smartening up from his earlier strategy of being outright disrespectful to the premier of the province. That strategy was foolish mainly because it would piss off pretty much every McGuinty supporter, as well as a few detractors who simply don't like the premier of this province so thoroughly disrespected, regardless of that premier's political stripes.
 
I just don't understand what is the issue here re. Harper's comments on Israel. The one well-working democracy in the Middle East is attacked by terrorists in Lebanon. Lebanon refuses to remove them, and the attacks continue. Israel strikes back, as should any country.

Are the human beings in a democracy worth more than those in non-democracies?

Is there a civilian price too high when it comes to civilians killed in the fight against terrorism?

What is a justifiable number of civilian dead in Lebanon when it comes to the war against terror? Who is doing the deciding, and can the numbers be questioned?



I guess this is what happens when issues of justice are not dealt with properly for over forty years. It is doubtful that this solution, or response, is any more helpful or useful in the long run.
 
It seems Harper is smartening up from his earlier strategy of being outright disrespectful to the premier of the province.

He might be trying (I am not certain if that is the case or not) but regardless, it doesn't seem to be doing too much. If you listened to some of the comments and interviews during the Premiers Conference last week, there was a lot of resentment towards Harper and his 'special' relationship with Charest. Probably the only thing that was agreed on by most premiers is that Harper has only really concerned himself with making backroom deals with Quebec and Alberta and ignored everybody else.
 

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