GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[TheTigerMaster]

"Oh, how can people even understand if a bus and a subway cost different things?" I was in Chicago earlier this year - it took me about 30 seconds. I feel like if people understand that the more they drive the more gas they have to keep putting in their cars, or that the more they run the more tired they get, or that the more ice cream they want to eat, the more scoops they need from Baskin Robbins, they can understand and adapt to the notion that a choochoo that goes further costs more.

Of course people can understand the concept of fare-by-distance. Unfortunately Torontonians in particular happen to enjoy our current fare system, and theres going to be a shit ton of political pressure not to move it to a distance-based model.

What's ultimately going to happen (and what Metrolinx has indicated) is that there will be a 905-TTC and GO-TTC fare discount. Most of the pressure to modernize our fare systems will evaporate with that move (no more complaints about having to pay two full fares), and that'll be the end of this fare integration exercise.

 

[cplchanb]

Of course people can understand the concept of fare-by-distance. Unfortunately Torontonians in particular happen to enjoy our current fare system, and theres going to be a shit ton of political pressure not to move it to a distance-based model.

What's ultimately going to happen (and what Metrolinx has indicated) is that there will be a 905-TTC and GO-TTC fare discount. Most of the pressure to modernize our fare systems will evaporate with that move (no more complaints about having to pay two full fares), and that'll be the end of this fare integration exercise.

its a shame that our city is just dripping with entitlement by being spoiled for the last 30 years

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Because GO can get you from one place within Toronto to another place within Toronto faster. Dundas West to Union or the upcoming East Harbour station is much faster than the equivalent subway ride. With frequent, electrified service and integrated fares with the subway it would be like a second subway system. GO can be incredibly useful for people in Toronto if we design the system properly. The rail corridors are right there, it makes no sense to pretend they don't exist.

Again it's Go transit which I have no problem being fare by distance plus I don't think many people in Toronto will use these new stations being added for RER samrt track or wahtever else you want to call it because they aren't as content as the TTC. Te only thing that I think the TTC should do is add a service charge from Vaughn to Poiner Village if you take the TTC for any of those stops without at TTC metropass on your Preto card like for example it would cost $4 instead of $3,25 to use the TTC from those stations.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

fare by distance, fare by zone, anything other than just $3.25

What exactly is wrong with a flat fare for all transit in the city. York Region has one for all their buses plus Viva. I'm not sure about others as I haven't really looked at them Go transit is the only one that does fare by distance and it makes sense as it's an interregional service.

its a shame that our city is just dripping with entitlement by being spoiled for the last 30 years

I don't really see what the problem with a flat fare in Toronto is we don't need to rewrite our fare rules just because a bunch of people taking other transit systems don't want to pay the extra fare to use it. This is as short sited as Rochester thinking people from Toronto would take a ferry across Lake Ontario to visit them, the majority of people that used it was from Rochester.

 

[Leo_Chan]

What exactly is wrong with a flat fare for all transit in the city. York Region has one for all their buses plus Viva. I'm not sure about others as I haven't really looked at them Go transit is the only one that does fare by distance and it makes sense as it's an inter-regional service.

I don't really see what the problem with a flat fare in Toronto is we don't need to rewrite our fare rules just because a bunch of people taking other transit sytems don't want to pay the extra fare to use it. This is as short sited as Rochester thinking people from Toronto would take a ferry across Lake Ontario to visit them, the majority of people that used it were from Rochester.

Even if fare integration doesn't happen, the TTC will eventually have to move away from a single fare because rapid transit costs money to build and operate (and maintain). So unless the TTC gets huge subsidies from the Province for operation and maintenance (let alone money for expansions), fares will continue to increase exponentially or a different fare system will be required.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Even if fare integration doesn't happen, the TTC will eventually have to move away from a single fare because rapid transit costs money to build and operate (and maintain). So unless the TTC gets huge subsidies from the Province for operation and maintenance (let alone money for expansions), fares will continue to increase exponentially or a different fare system will be required.

and you think fare integration will stop that from happening if anything fares will increase throughout the GTHA so that each system can get more of a share of money as they expand. I did her fom someone once that the TTC is thinking of posably making the subway two zones abaing but having it be devisded by the 401 if you cross north of it it would be ahier fare then if you reamain south of it.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

My biggest beef about fare integration is that metrolinx wants to stronge arm there way into it. Personally I think that the metrolinx board should be run like the old pre amalgamated Toronto was except have each of the CEO' s of the various transit agencies on the board or at least have a representative designated by then on the board. They already forced everyone to use presto now they want to change how people pay for travel on the system by threatening to withhold funding because they are some sort of government of Ontario agency that has too much power.

 

[MisterF]

Again it's Go transit which I have no problem being fare by distance plus I don't think many people in Toronto will use these new stations being added for RER samrt track or wahtever else you want to call it because they aren't as content as the TTC. Te only thing that I think the TTC should do is add a service charge from Vaughn to Poiner Village if you take the TTC for any of those stops without at TTC metropass on your Preto card like for example it would cost $4 instead of $3,25 to use the TTC from those stations.

With electrified, frequent service on 6 lines, the only reason Torontonians wouldn't use a Metrolinx train is because the fares are higher. You have yet to articulate why a ride from Danforth to East Harbour for example should be more expensive on a green train than on a couple of silver trains. This separation of systems is part of the problem in Toronto. It should all be one seamless, integrated system once RER is up and running. The old fare system might have made sense when GO was a rush hour shuttle to and from the suburbs, but RER changes that completely.

Better yet, we should just merge all the transit systems in the GTA into a single unified transit authority. That way we can get on with building a proper transit system without worrying on who's stepping on whose turf.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

With electrified, frequent service on 6 lines, the only reason Torontonians wouldn't use a Metrolinx train is because the fares are higher. You have yet to articulate why a ride from Danforth to East Harbour for example should be more expensive on a green train than on a couple of silver trains. This separation of systems is part of the problem in Toronto. It should all be one seamless, integrated system once RER is up and running. The old fare system might have made sense when GO was a rush hour shuttle to and from the suburbs, but RER changes that completely.

Your arguments make as much sense to me as mine does to you then. I don't see why Toronto needs to bow down to the will of Metrolinx and everyone else and change our fare system because they don't like it.n I really don't see how RER and Eltryfing the go line if either ever actually happen will not likely change the way people commute in Toronto, people who believe that can join the crowd of people that think putting bike lanes all over the city will engage people to ride bikes in the city.

Better yet, we should just merge all the transit systems in the GTA into a single unified transit authority. That way we can get on with building a proper transit system without worrying on who's stepping on whose turf.

I think that will be a pretty big thing to do and could get very ugly if they do try something like that. I think it would be much better if Metrolinx worked like the way the old city of Toronto did. Each system would have a CEO or a representative at every meeting and Metriolionx wouldn't have as much power as it does or wants to have over the region.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Ok so I've been thinking about this and maybe fare integration could be a good Idea if it's done properly. By that, i mean that Metrolinx needs to sit down with all of the agencies and work with them to create a plan. So far they have only ever met with the full TTC board once in March 0f 20016, I don't know if they have met with any other board at all. It3would make sense that they should be sitting down with the TTC now to discuss fare aramgemts for when the subway extension opens on December 17th of this year, but instead Metrolinx decided they want to go to the press and say they want to have full fare integration with no actual plans at all that just leave everyone speculating about what it will be. To me, that seems more like they want to create a problem rather than find a solution to it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Of course people can understand the concept of fare-by-distance. Unfortunately Torontonians in particular happen to enjoy our current fare system, and theres going to be a shit ton of political pressure not to move it to a distance-based model.
What's ultimately going to happen (and what Metrolinx has indicated) is that there will be a 905-TTC and GO-TTC fare discount. Most of the pressure to modernize our fare systems will evaporate with that move (no more complaints about having to pay two full fares), and that'll be the end of this fare integration exercise.

Torontonians enjoy all sorts of things that are unsustainable or stupid, whether it's low property tax rates, voting for Fords or a flat fare system devised during the Eisenhower administration. It's immaterial to the realities of operating infrastructure in a major metropolis in the 21st Century, is my point.

They've just waited too long to do this. If amalgamation actually had been devised with any kind of brains, they would have implemented a proper regional authority of some sort and fare integration would have been part of that. Instead it was just an ill-tempered money-saving venture which had the side-effect of making the Metro municipalities realize they have to work together more without solving any real problems.

It's also unfortunate, per EastYorkTTCFan that Metrolinx has to "strong-arm" their way in, but too bad. Toronto - and TTC, especially - hasn't taken the lead on any of this stuff in decades. Presto is a case in point. Toronto was happy to keep going with tokens - while Paris, London and everyone else has had fare cards for years and years - until Metrolinx "Strong-armed" them on Presto. Suddenly they had some dumb, Hail Mary idea for an open payment system. But there's no way TTC would otherwise be getting rid of tokens by now.

So I'm good with as much strong-arming as it takes to drag those reactionary fools into the modern world. The devil is in the details but I think there's a lot of people out there who don't even want to wrap their heads around the situation in the first place.

People travel across borders in a way they didn't 30 or 50 years ago. And now we're building lines the TYSSE and RER that cross borders in the same way. Clinging to a flat fare is just trying to put a genie back in the bottle

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It amazes me how many people seem to think that the TTC has just been sitting around twidling their thumbs well other cities have put in fare card systems. You don't seem to think that they could have been watching what other cities did before jumping in. When presto first came out the TTC said they wanted to put out tenders to other companies bit ended up being forced to use presto because the province threatened to withhold funding for the crosstown line unless they adopted presto.

 

[MisterF]

Your arguments make as much sense to me as mine does to you then. I don't see why Toronto needs to bow down to the will of Metrolinx and everyone else and change our fare system because they don't like it.n I really don't see how RER and Eltryfing the go line if either ever actually happen will not likely change the way people commute in Toronto, people who believe that can join the crowd of people that think putting bike lanes all over the city will engage people to ride bikes in the city.



I think that will be a pretty big thing to do and could get very ugly if they do try something like that. I think it would be much better if Metrolinx worked like the way the old city of Toronto did. Each system would have a CEO or a representative at every meeting and Metriolionx wouldn't have as much power as it does or wants to have over the region.

You keep saying that people won't change their habits when other options become available but you have yet to say why. Let's look at a hypothetical scenario where you can choose between two trains that cost the same price and go to the same destination. Train A comes every 5 minutes, makes a dozen stops, includes a transfer, and takes half an hour. Train B comes every 7.5 minutes, makes 4 stops on a direct trip that takes 15 minutes. Which one would you take? Most people would obviously take train B. But you seem to think that Torontonians would choose the slower option. Seems odd to me.

As for cycling, feel free to post that opinion in one of the cycling threads and I'll gladly respond to it there.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

You keep saying that people won't change their habits when other options become available but you have yet to say why. Let's look at a hypothetical scenario where you can choose between two trains that cost the same price and go to the same destination. Train A comes every 5 minutes, makes a dozen stops, includes a transfer, and takes half an hour. Train B comes every 7.5 minutes, makes 4 stops on a direct trip that takes 15 minutes. Which one would you take? Most people would obviously take train B. But you seem to think that Torontonians would choose the slower option. Seems odd to me.

Your post makes a lot of assumptions one we don't know yet what the frequency of these extra go train/ RER/ Smart track stations will be and all we have is some random study that showed pole would use it if it cost the same as the TTC. We have no idea what fare could be charged by any organization by that point all I'm saying is that if it goes by fare by distance like Go transit currently does or Zones whatever you want to call it people in Toronto will say it's too expensive to use all the time if they nedd to get downton. Thta's the point I keep trying to make. Alos Go trasit/RER ?SNart Track areen't going serve every single place in Toronto poe want to go.

As for cycling, feel free to post that opinion in one of the cycling threads and I'll gladly respond to it there.

I wouild but they're the ones that make that stupid argumnet all the time. I lunp them in with vegatrains that constenlty want to tell poel that eat meat that they are evil and should stop it becuse they are helping kill the plant becuse of it. Dopn't try and tell pople waht they should andshould not do with ther lives, let pole make ther own choices.

Jusat a side note we will porabbly never cionvince each other that one side is more right then another. I have my opinios and you have yours as do amny others that post here.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It amazes me how many people seem to think that the TTC has just been sitting around twidling their thumbs well other cities have put in fare card systems. You don't seem to think that they could have been watching what other cities did before jumping in. When presto first came out the TTC said they wanted to put out tenders to other companies bit ended up being forced to use presto because the province threatened to withhold funding for the crosstown line unless they adopted presto.

It amazes me that you think this is what happened. This is totally backwards and incorrect.

Presto launched in 2009 (after a pilot in 07-08). The entire point of it was to be a system for the entire Region. Yes, that was Metrolinx's job and not TTC's but to that point I've never seen anything that remotely suggests TTC was looking into their own fare card or open payment or anything other than tokens. I think it was in 06 or 07 TTC switched to the new Toonie-style tokens after there was a big fraud problem. You remember hearing anything at that time about them wondering if it was time to try new technology? Nope. Me neither.

TTC wasn't "watching what other cities" did. they were playing a little game because Metrolinx was sticking them with big costs to adopt Presto. They only started talking about puting out the tenders at the last minute, in 2010. Only Adam Giambrone et al know whether they actually thought they had a chance of doing it but - even if it made sense for TTC to adopt its own system just as the whole region adopted something else (which, to be clear, it did not) - it was never a real plan. It was just a bluff Metrolinx called because they were holding all of the TTC's expansion funding. If Presto hadn't existed, if Metrolinx hadn't "imposed" it on them, they'd have soldiered on with tokens for who knows how long.

It amazes me, sincerely, you think the TTC was playing some cunning game, watching New York adopt the Metrocard in in 1994, then London adopt the Oyster card in 2003 and then every GTA municipality adopt Presto one by one, biding their time for the perfect moment to leapfrog everyone with their brilliant, leading edge plan. Never happened. (This reminds me of the bit at the end of Se7en when John Doe asks the detectives, who think they were about to catch him, what they were waiting for before he turned himself in.)

You can make arguments about why Toronto shouldn't bow down to Metrolinx the same way some people think Scarborough should secede and Toronto should de-amalgamate. It's all living in the past. It's fantasy. If Scarborough seceded they'd have no tax base to do anything and if Toronto ignored Metrolinx, say bye to the DRL, RER/SmartTrack, the Crosstown and everything else Toronto's taxpayers are incapable of and unwilling to pay for themselves. Toronto is the biggest fish in the pond, and Metrolinx needs to respect that, but it's not the only fish in the pond either.