GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[cplchanb]

Note how you said LARGE metro systems............Toronto doesn't qualify.

thats just relative. The fact is, as "unjust" as it is, higher order transit needs to cost more than local transit. They cost more to build run and maintain so it would only make sense that they be priced accordingly It doesnt make sense in 2017 to be able to take a subway from end to end and still pay the same price for a short bus ride. Like the infamous token, gone are the days where it was financially feasible to charge 1 small flat rate, especially if we are to expand our transit. Maybe if we are like Norway and we saved $1 Trillion, we can give out massive subsidies but are bleeding cash and almost broke when it comes to expansion. We cant afford to run at a deficit just to appease the status quo. imo TTC riders are rather spoiled with entitlement when it comes to fares being a flat rate.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

thats just relative. The fact is, as "unjust" as it is, higher order transit needs to cost more than local transit. They cost more to build run and maintain so it would only make sense that they be priced accordingly It doesnt make sense in 2017 to be able to take a subway from end to end and still pay the same price for a short bus ride. Like the infamous token, gone are the days where it was financially feasible to charge 1 small flat rate, especially if we are to expand our transit. Maybe if we are like Norway and we saved $1 Trillion, we can give out massive subsidies but are bleeding cash and almost broke when it comes to expansion. We cant afford to run at a deficit just to appease the status quo. imo TTC riders are rather spoiled with entitlement when it comes to fares being a flat rate.

As much sense as you think that makes there will be a lot of pushback from all kinds of people if the TTC even thinks of charging by distance on the subway. Plus there are many hurdles in the way of it for example what happens to people with metropases or do you get rid of them and everyone has to pay a fare or we just have a confusing capping thing taht Go transit uses.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto does NOT qualify as a city with a large Metro. Hell even Vancouver's is bigger. A large Metro system is one like Paris where anywhere in the City still puts you within 5 blocks of the nearest Metro station.........you can live in Paris on transit and never take the bus.

The proof is in the pudding, look at GO. GO rail ridership in Toronto is pathetic and lower than Mississauga despite being served by all 7 lines, enjoying the highest frequencies, and the most stations. Why don't Torontonians take GO? It's not because they like waiting for a packed bus in the rain nor is it because they love being pressured like a sardine on the subway but because they can't afford to take it.

All the bells and whistles won't change the fact that people are price sensitive. They can increase GO trains from every hour to every 30 seconds but it won't make a hoot of difference if people can't afford to take it. The UPX would see it's ridership go from 7,000 to 70,000 overnight if it was part of the TTC fare system.

The fairest system and the one that gets rid of these imaginary boundaries is fare-by-distance. The longer your trip the more you pay and how you get there shouldn't matter. If RER is just nothing more than a more frequent GO service it will have been a colossal waste of money. F-B-D is also the most politically palatable because it would be hard for anyone to counter the argument that they longer your distance the more you pay and vice versa.

 

[cplchanb]

As much sense as you think that makes there will be a lot of pushback from all kinds of people if the TTC even thinks of charging by distance on the subway. Plus there are many hurdles in the way of it for example what happens to people with metropases or do you get rid of them and everyone has to pay a fare or we just have a confusing capping thing taht Go transit uses.

comon guys....youre making it sound like we're the first city to come up with this when we are actually shamefully one of the last....really how hard can it be? for presto card users, they tap at the starting station to start the meter and then they tap out of their distination to calculate the total amount which is based on how many stations between start and stop.
if you want to have a pass its the same as before. for those who have no cards they can buy tickets with fares based on where they get on and where they get off. its not that hard guys, this issue has been solved for decades... the only hurdle i can see
is how to make transfer to buses. the controversial option is to separate the buses completely so that transfers to bus or lrt will require another tap on but at a discounted rate or even free if the card is programmed to recognize a direct transfer.
or they can do tap off via the bus and calculate the distance on top of that. The possiblilities are endless. its all down to programming

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Fare by distance only makes sense if it's a longer distance it makes no sense inside of a city. I think we have a way more sensable fare system for the TTC then other cities do. London's system is unnecessarily complex and confusing for tourists that are unprepared for more than one zone. I really hope we don't have fare by distance in Toronto ever.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Here's my take on fare integration. I live in Toronto and rarely use go transit. I don't go to anywhere outside of the city by public transit. So if the TTC is all I use why should I care about fare integration, you probably will find that most people that live in Toronto and don't comute outside of the city don't either. Fare by distance with in the city of Toronto is just an uncersry hinderince to taking public transit. Fare integration only makes sense if you don't live in Toronto and comute into the city.

 

[nfitz]

Hell even Vancouver's is bigger.

53 stations is bigger than 69? Half a million a day is bigger than a million a day? A 40 metre-long platform is longer than 150 metres? They've temporarily got a slight edge on km, with about 79 km compared to 77 km - though they are probably beat if you start adding in the kilometres in the yards.

Heck, most of their stations aren't even in Vancouver; it's a very suburban system in places.

 

[MisterF]

53 stations is bigger than 69? Half a million a day is bigger than a million a day? A 40 metre-long platform is longer than 150 metres? They've temporarily got a slight edge on km, with about 79 km compared to 77 km - though they are probably beat if you start adding in the kilometres in the yards.

Heck, most of their stations aren't even in Vancouver; it's a very suburban system in places.

Vancouver has done a better job expanding mass transit than Toronto has, even acknowledging your points. Yes, RER could be considered rapid transit especially if fares are properly integrated, and so could certain sections of LRT. But there's no way that a metro area less than half the size of Toronto that started building their system decades later should have even a temporary advantage in kilometres. Montreal also has a longer RT network, by the way. With higher ridership.

Here's my take on fare integration. I live in Toronto and rarely use go transit. I don't go to anywhere outside of the city by public transit. So if the TTC is all I use why should I care about fare integration, you probably will find that most people that live in Toronto and don't comute outside of the city don't either. Fare by distance with in the city of Toronto is just an uncersry hinderince to taking public transit. Fare integration only makes sense if you don't live in Toronto and comute into the city.

Because GO can get you from one place within Toronto to another place within Toronto faster. Dundas West to Union or the upcoming East Harbour station is much faster than the equivalent subway ride. With frequent, electrified service and integrated fares with the subway it would be like a second subway system. GO can be incredibly useful for people in Toronto if we design the system properly. The rail corridors are right there, it makes no sense to pretend they don't exist.

 

[cplchanb]

Fare by distance only makes sense if it's a longer distance it makes no sense inside of a city. I think we have a way more sensable fare system for the TTC then other cities do. London's system is unnecessarily complex and confusing for tourists that are unprepared for more than one zone. I really hope we don't have fare by distance in Toronto ever.

i think rather the opposite.... many tourists come from "large cities" with large metro systems, so they are used to fare by distance or some form of floating fare. I dont think they will have an issue going to a more
rudimentary system. in fact they might be confused themselves on why theres no tap out

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What's funny about this conversation is that for decades, the TTC's simple transfers and fare system has been praised around the world for its user friendliness. Many NYCers or Londoners would love to have something so simple.

 

[cplchanb]

What's funny about this conversation is that for decades, the TTC's simple transfers and fare system has been praised around the world for its user friendliness. Many NYCers or Londoners would love to have something so simple.

true, but that was simpler times when ttc was touted to be the "best transit in the western world". unfortunately now with rising costs and increased services, gone are the days of a simple single fare and tokens. IMO in order remain economically feasible, they need to float the fares to justify rising costs

 

[Palma]

Here's my take on fare integration. I live in Toronto and rarely use go transit. I don't go to anywhere outside of the city by public transit. So if the TTC is all I use why should I care about fare integration, you probably will find that most people that live in Toronto and don't comute outside of the city don't either. Fare by distance with in the city of Toronto is just an uncersry hinderince to taking public transit. Fare integration only makes sense if you don't live in Toronto and comute into the city.

so if this is the case have the fare by distance end once you cross into Toronto. But I just realized this won't be possible. What to do when subway crosses from Vaughan (big mistake) at Steele?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What's funny about this conversation is that for decades, the TTC's simple transfers and fare system has been praised around the world for its user friendliness. Many NYCers or Londoners would love to have something so simple.

I wonder if they'd trade the "complexity" of their transit systems for ours just to get a simplistic fare system? The two are related, after all. Maybe they'd even trade the Metro/Oystercard's they have for over a decade for our simple tokens?

Or maybe they have more complicated fare systems and more advanced fare collection technology because that's what you need when your system isn't serving a population of 1 million in 1970 anymore?? Look at the Billboard charts; the Bee Gees aren't on top anymore and neither is the TTC's fare system.

No - they wouldn't trade down to our system any more than you'd trade down to a horse and buggy in a small town just because it's much easier than dealing with the honking cars and traffic lights and all the rules we have here in the big city. It's more work but this is part of growing up, like starting to shave and using deodorant.

Gosh - everyone acts like we're inventing something SO complicated. All the "world-class" cities we purport to stand with figured this stuff out DECADES ago. DECADES! That's what's funny about the conversation.

"Oh, how can people even understand if a bus and a subway cost different things?" I was in Chicago earlier this year - it took me about 30 seconds. I feel like if people understand that the more they drive the more gas they have to keep putting in their cars, or that the more they run the more tired they get, or that the more ice cream they want to eat, the more scoops they need from Baskin Robbins, they can understand and adapt to the notion that a choochoo that goes further costs more.

But no - apparently our paper transfers are something people from New York City, with its bazillion subway stations, intricate RER network and long-familiar fare cards -actually envy! That's the funny part of the conversation.

Steve Munro et al can whine all they want. Toronto isn't a small city anymore, nor is it an island. Integration is both inevitable and necessary. Doesn't mean we don't have to do it right and fairly, but all the complaining and whinging about how the concept of paying more to travel further is both unfair and hard to implement is just so Toronto.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

true, but that was simpler times when ttc was touted to be the "best transit in the western world". unfortunately now with rising costs and increased services, gone are the days of a simple single fare and tokens. IMO in order remain economically feasible, they need to float the fares to justify rising costs

Float the fares????

 

[cplchanb]

Float the fares????

fare by distance, fare by zone, anything other than just $3.25