GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[Adjei]

Are Oakville, Burlington, and Hamilton transit included in this ?

 

[picard102]

But I think @crs1026 point was simply that we don't want to encourage people to live very long distances from work or subsidize sprawl.

Unfortunately, with housing costs as they are and seemingly will remain to be, I don't think we have much of a choice but to enable people living on the outer edges of the city to choose transit over their car.

 

[crs1026]

Unfortunately, with housing costs as they are and seemingly will remain to be, I don't think we have much of a choice but to enable people living on the outer edges of the city to choose transit over their car.

I would argue that people are already making those choices, and the change in fares is not really enough to change that. The difference in mortgage costs and more recently rental costs is what drives people to the farther regions. The fare differential is material to whether they drive or use transit, but it is a lesser economic dilemma. I suspect that the convenience and quality of the entire trip - which includes first/last mile time and convenience more than transfer costs - is what will influence that choice. Faster more frequent GO service certainly will help, but poor last-mile bus coverage and achedules will still be an impediment. A free transfer to a bus that comes hourly is no bargain.

The number of people already crossing the TTC boundary is substantial, and is a major reason why this particular fare integration deal has taken so long…. TTC will lose considerable revenue from a one-fare protocol, and only now has a mitigation for this loss been supported. Others - Brampton and Miway for instance - already had a reciprocal transfer agreement.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

Are Oakville, Burlington, and Hamilton transit included in this ?

Here let me google that for you:

https://www.metrolinx.com/en/projects-and-programs/fare-integration/one-fare-program

We’re working with the province and local transit partners towards integrating transit fares across systems, making transit more connected, affordable, and convenient as we take action to build the region's network for the future.

Starting February 26, Ontario's One Fare Program will allow transit riders to only pay once when connecting to and from the TTC and GO Transit, Brampton Transit, Durham Region Transit, MiWay and York Region Transit.

 

[reaperexpress]

With free transfers between GTA local transit agencies, I was wondering what the longest trip that you can legitimately make on a single local fare is. You can't go all the way across the service area because that would take longer than the 2 hours the transfer lasts. In theory you need to be off the transit system by the end of your transfer (though in practice you can get away with longer trips on pay-as-you-enter systems).

The longest trip on local transit under 2h that I could find is from Davis & Yonge in Newmarket to Queen & Yonge, which is a straight-line distance of 45 km. At the $3.85 YRT fare, that's $0.09/km.

 

[MrGoose]

With free transfers between GTA local transit agencies, I was wondering what the longest trip that you can legitimately make on a single local fare is. You can't go all the way across the service area because that would take longer than the 2 hours the transfer lasts. In theory you need to be off the transit system by the end of your transfer (though in practice you can get away with longer trips on pay-as-you-enter systems).

The longest trip on local transit under 2h that I could find is from Davis & Yonge in Newmarket to Queen & Yonge, which is a straight-line distance of 45 km. At the $3.85 YRT fare, that's $0.09/km.
View attachment 538649

Does the transfer have to happen within 2 hours or does the trip have to take 2hrs?

 

[reaperexpress]

Does the transfer have to happen within 2 hours or does the trip have to take 2hrs?

In principle your Presto "ticket" is a 2-hour pass, so after 2 hours it is no longer valid.

From yrt.ca:

Our fares let you travel on any YRT vehicle in any direction for two hours with just one fare. Fare is valid for two hours from time of issue or validation. Travel must be completed within two hours of fare issue or validation.

If you are riding a proof-of-payment service like Viva 2h01 after your first tap, if you got fare-inspected you would not have a valid fare on your Presto card. However, on pay-as-you enter services like YRT buses your proof of payment is only checked as you enter so you could easily get away with riding beyond the end of your valid trip without any repercussions.

That does raise the interesting question of what you're supposed to do if you go somewhere and start your return trip 1h50 after your first tap. There's no realistic way to legitimately pay for your return trip because when you tap on it will just give you a $0 transfer without extending your trip.

 

[reaperexpress]

And we need to preserve the basic intent of “fare by distance” - we should not let the total price of a longer journey fall to an inappropriate level.
Lastly, lett’s not fall victim to optics. If some riders are getting a break, other riders are paying more, indirectly - as are taxpayers from afar who don’t use transit (or live far away). Possibly as fares rise in the future, the farebox revenue will be raised and the subsidy will reduce. I’m not arguing against the change, but let’s not let anyone (eg DoFo) pretend that this is a free lunch.

I don't agree that we need to preserve fare by distance for transfers between local transit agencies, because it only applies to local transit modes, and the transfers are only valid for two hours. People who are travelling longer distances would tend to save a lot of time by using GO as part of their trip, in which case their trip is priced by distance anyway.

When I was looking for the longest possible trip on local transit, it was a struggle to find it using Google Maps, since for such long distances it was always routing me onto GO Transit. I ended up using Triplinx since it allowed me to specifically block results that contained GO Transit. The longest possible local transit trips I found were around 40 km, which is about $0.09/km. It has always been possible to take 40 km trips on a single local transit ticket, such as from Finch Station to Keswick on YRT, or Long Branch to Rouge Hill on the TTC. The only difference now is that there are no longer arbitrary boundaries that dictate where that is possible.

Frankly someone who decides to take an incredibly long trip on local transit rather than spend a couple bucks to upgrade to GO Transit is probably really tight on cash. So I don't mind if those few users end up with a low per-km cost.
And if a 2-hour trip on local transit is genuinely the fastest way for a passenger to get somewhere then I feel like the low per-km cost is a reasonable compensation to that rider for the absence of a fast transit option.

The main beneficiaries will be people who live in the 905 just close enough to the subway that it's worth taking that rather than GO. People further out don't actually lose the effect of distance since they'd still use GO buses or trains as part of the trip, the benefit is merely that their first- and last-mile bus connections are now free.

 

[crs1026]

I don't agree that we need to preserve fare by distance for local transit agencies, because the fare integration only applies to local buses, and the transfers are only valid for two hours. People who are travelling longer distances would tend to save a lot of time by using GO as part of their trip, and GO does still have fare-by-distance.

As @Northern Light noted, I was not arguing for a full-bore fare by distance regime, but more of a general principle. Conceptually, a scheme that makes a trip from Mississauga City Center to Pickering Town Center cost more than a trip from either of those to Toronto City Hall makes some intuitive sense. But I woud err on the side of simplicity. Some of the multi-zone schemes I have seen elsewhere are just plain painful to compute fares and (for an out of towner) it's easy to not buy enough zoneage for the intended trip.

I have been told by folks who are "in the room" that certain people with a say are still eager to see a fare by distance regime so tight that people would have to tap off buses every trip as fare calculations could differ over the length of a single bus route. Nuts to that!

The main beneficiaries will be people who live in the 905 just close enough to the subway that it's worth taking that rather than GO. People further out don't actually lose the effect of distance since they'd still use GO buses or trains as part of the trip, the benefit is merely that their first- and last-mile bus connections are now free.

Already I regularly use GO from downtown to/from Bloor or Mimico or Kipling, just to avoid the subway crush at St George. UP also. Same with Mimico to Danforth. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

When GO really gets 2WAD in place, and Crosstown is opened, and with new GO stations added, we may see some very different commuting patterns emerging.

- Paul

 

[11th]

Are Oakville, Burlington, and Hamilton transit included in this ?

Those three already have free co-fare with GO.

 

[APTA-2048]

Those three already have free co-fare with GO.

Also with each other. I think the current scheme was more about agencies connecting to the TTC.

Though I wonder if for a journey where someone starts on the TTC and, say, transfers to Mississauga, then to Oakville in under two hours that results in only one (TTC) fare paid. I haven’t looked at any trip planners to find a realistic route.

 

[futurebound]

With free transfers between GTA local transit agencies, I was wondering what the longest trip that you can legitimately make on a single local fare is. You can't go all the way across the service area because that would take longer than the 2 hours the transfer lasts. In theory you need to be off the transit system by the end of your transfer (though in practice you can get away with longer trips on pay-as-you-enter systems).

The longest trip on local transit under 2h that I could find is from Davis & Yonge in Newmarket to Queen & Yonge, which is a straight-line distance of 45 km. At the $3.85 YRT fare, that's $0.09/km.
View attachment 538649

Considering the TTC allows you to finish your trip if your transfer expires within the fare-paid zone, one could feasibly travel from Davis and Yonge, transfer to Line 1 at Finch, and then stay within the fare-paid zone and head to Kipling with a transfer at Bloor-Yonge.

Edit: with a bus transfer at Kipling Station onto the 900, one could get to Pearson from Yonge/Davis with a single fare.

 

[futurebound]

If you are riding a proof-of-payment service like Viva 2h01 after your first tap, if you got fare-inspected you would not have a valid fare on your Presto card. However, on pay-as-you enter services like YRT buses your proof of payment is only checked as you enter so you could easily get away with riding beyond the end of your valid trip without any repercussions.

This is completely nonsensical and leaving it up to the fare inspector's discretion is not an appropriate solution either. How can we push for change? Is YRT accountable to York Regional Council?

 

[11th]

Also with each other. I think the current scheme was more about agencies connecting to the TTC.

Though I wonder if for a journey where someone starts on the TTC and, say, transfers to Mississauga, then to Oakville in under two hours that results in only one (TTC) fare paid. I haven’t looked at any trip planners to find a realistic route.

I wonder if this whole itinerary can be done with the base $3.70 GO fare:
viva from Newmarket to Finch
GO bus from Finch to Sheppard
Line 1 from Sheppard to Kipling
MiWay to South Commons
Oakville Transit to Oakville GO

 

[rbt]

In principle your Presto "ticket" is a 2-hour pass, so after 2 hours it is no longer valid.

From yrt.ca:


If you are riding a proof-of-payment service like Viva 2h01 after your first tap, if you got fare-inspected you would not have a valid fare on your Presto card. However, on pay-as-you enter services like YRT buses your proof of payment is only checked as you enter so you could easily get away with riding beyond the end of your valid trip without any repercussions.

That does raise the interesting question of what you're supposed to do if you go somewhere and start your return trip 1h50 after your first tap. There's no realistic way to legitimately pay for your return trip because when you tap on it will just give you a $0 transfer without extending your trip.

It seems to be up to fare enforcement of the specific agency you're riding. TTC explicitly states it only needs to be within the 2 hour window when you tapped:

If you are on a vehicle or enter a station with a few minutes remaining on your transfer, you can continue to complete your journey and do not need to tap if the transfer expires while you are on that vehicle. For example, if you tap on a streetcar 1 hour and 55 minutes after your first tap, and you are still on the same streetcar 20 minutes later, your transfer is still valid. When TTC fare inspectors query your PRESTO card, they will be able to see that your transfer is still valid.

Two-hour transfer

www.ttc.ca