GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload

[hw621]

More on the story

 

[ssiguy2]

As mdrejhon correctly pointed out this is not the 1990s or times before. Public priorities have changed and the people`s perception of the need for good transit has changed with it. There will not be a repeat of the Harris realm as the political costs would be huge and there would be a howl of opposition from all business related entities like the Chambers of Commerce and municipal Economic Development Boards who`s members are having a hard enough time trying to get qualified employees and who`s businesses are losing money hand over fist as their deliveries and employees sit in traffic.

A Superlinx would also SHEILD Toronto from transit cutbacks. Ford`s antipathy towards Toronto {as recently seen with his meddling in municipal politics} is palpable so his ideas of further hurting the city by cutting it`s transit subsidies would vanish under a Superlinx as it would hit his 905 base as well.

One must also remember that, unlike in the 1990s, there is now another player at the table...…..Ottawa. Ottawa was cutting back in the 90s and particularly so with infrastructure spending. Now Ottawa is pouring tens of billions into transit and Ford would never pass up such federal largess. He would lose half his MPs overnight if all of a sudden he refused Ottawa transit infrastructure money which now would go to other provinces with half of the savings going to Quebec.

Metrolinx was a half-assed attempt to bring some kind of cohesion to the transit mess in the GTA at which it failed miserably. In a time when everyone is pleading for more transit it puts half it's energy and money into building Taj Mahal parking garages which it doesn't even charge for yet raised the transit fares at the same time. How long does it take to figure out what kind of trains you are going to run? Then again how can they know when after years of planning they still haven't even figured out their platform heights.

 

[steveintoronto]

More on the story

If you could link that, you should. I went looking for the source, failed to find it, but this showed instead, also from today: (I've yet to even read this, let alone agree or disagree. What must be appreciated in any 'poll' or 'survey' is the context of the questions, and how educated/aware respondents are on the matter. Misunderstanding of the issue is rampant)

Nearly three in four Toronto residents support 'Superlinx' proposal: poll

Chris Fox, CP24.com
Published Wednesday, October 31, 2018 12:29PM EDT
Last Updated Wednesday, October 31, 2018 4:05PM EDT

Nearly three out of four Toronto residents support the idea of having one central agency responsible for both local and regional transit services, a new poll has found.

The Toronto Region Board of Trade commissioned the poll to gauge support for its “Superlinx” proposal, which would see one provincial agency responsible for operating and building transit both regionally and in individual communities along the Toronto-Waterloo corridor.

The idea was first floated by the board of trade in a policy paper released nearly a year ago but has again been brought to the forefront in light of the provincial government’s stated desire to assume responsibility for Toronto’s subway infrastructure.

In the policy paper, the board of trade argued in favour of replacing local transit agencies in 11 municipalities with a central provincial transit agency, which it said would have the “vision, scale and resources” to create a world class transit system,

The Environics Research poll of 1,000 adult residents in the Greater Toronto, Hamilton and Waterloo regions found that such an idea would have widespread support.

A total of 79 per cent of respondents said that they would be in favour of the plan, including 74 per cent of the respondents in the City of Toronto.

The plan was the most popular in Halton and Peel regions (88 and 87 per cent support respectively). Meanwhile, the level of support was lower in Waterloo and Hamilton (67 and 65 per cent respectively).

“We used to have peoples whose jobs were within cities and the cities would manage their transit networks within those cities. The reality today is that our second biggest employment zone in Canada is in the area around the airport – Mississauga, Brampton and Toronto – and none of those transit authorities are really focused on how they build transit outside their communities to those zones,” President and CEO of the Toronto Region Board of Trade told CP24 on Wednesday afternoon.

The majority of respondents to the poll said that in order to have a truly regional transit system there needs to be a “significant overhaul,” including 91 per cent of those in Toronto.

Speaking with CP24, De Silva described the current model in which there is a regional transit agency in Metrolinx and a number of other local transit agencies as “fragmented” and ineffective.

“We have been advocating for 20 years to say let’s get the financing down to the cities so they can get on with it but it is not working and we are at a point now where we need something that integrates across the region and the province has far more financial capacity to deal with that,” she said.

The provincial government has appointed a special adviser to head up efforts to upload Toronto’s subway system, though it remains unclear when such a move would actually be carried out.

While De Silva called the idea “a necessary first step,” other stakeholders including the TTC’s largest union and the TTCriders advocacy organization have opposed it.

In a news release issued on Wednesday afternoon, TTCriders Executive Director Shelagh Pizey-Allen said that uploading the subway system to the province “may sound like a good idea, but is a recipe for higher fares, loss of local control, privatization, and service cuts.”

Pizey-Allen also questioned the results of the poll, given that respondents were not made aware of potential impacts on “fares, governance, transparency, and funding for local transit systems.

“Doug Ford’s plan to upload the subway won’t fix the TTC or make transit more affordable,” she said.

Mayor John Tory has previously said that while he would consider the merits of the idea of uploading the subway, he has stressed that the status quo would have to be “substantially improved” for both riders and taxpayers.

The Environics Research poll was conducted between Aug. 13 and 21 using an online panel. No margin of error has been provided.

https://www.cp24.com/news/nearly-th...nts-support-superlinx-proposal-poll-1.4157458

This string sure came alive at an opportune time, this topic has climbed out of the crypt with sorcerer's synchronicity.

 

[Neutrino]

puts half it's energy and money into building Taj Mahal parking garages

I love how predictable this line has become

 

[steveintoronto]

A Superlinx would also shield Toronto from transit cutbacks. Ford`s antipathy towards Toronto {as recently seen with his meddling in municipal politics} is palpable so his ideas of further hurting the city but cutting it`s transit subsidies would vanish under a Superlinx as it would hit his 905 base as well.

There's absolutely no way this power-hungry thugerment would take their filthy hands off of Toronto's tiller. Ford is out to punish Toronto and other jurisdictions in any way he can. If that isn't obvious by now, I don't know what it would take.

Now Ottawa is pouring tens of billions into transit and Ford would never pass up such federal largess. He would lose half his MPs overnight if all of a sudden he refused Ottawa transit infrastructure money which now would go to other provinces with half of the savings going to Quebec.

This is true! And we've only seen hints so far as to how "Ottawa will go around QP and deal directly with the municipalities" (gist from Adam Vaughan, speaking on behalf of the FedLibs). I can believe this with provisos, one of them the Markets instead of QP in P3 arrangements. More on this later.

In a time when everyone is pleading for more transit it puts half it's energy and money into building Taj Mahal parking garages which it doesn't even charge for yet raised the transit fares at the same time.

And Ford is determined to promote more of exactly that.

 

[steveintoronto]

More on the story

Still digging to find the source of this article. At Environics' website now searching, still haven't found it, but did find this:

[...]
As transportation has grown in significance to the GTA, residents’ views on the subject have evolved and coalesced. To start, residents are casting aside parochial interests in favour of systemic change. Perhaps a reflection of how many commutes cross municipal boundaries, a strong majority prefer a regional solution to our transit woes over piecemeal local efforts. Even a majority of those who only drive accept that they should shoulder some of the financial commitment required of a new transit system.

What is also increasingly clear is that high-profile debates about subways versus light rail versus other modes of transit are largely artificial constructs: superficial choices or wedge-issues of political campaigns. Sure, the new streetcars look sleek and modern. And when it’s -30° outside, a subway platform is relatively more comfortable than a bus shelter. However, when pressed, most residents don’t have strong feelings on transit modes.

What is important to residents is predictability. Sure, everyone would like a faster, cheaper commute in the most current, comfortable and Wi-Fi-enabled mode available. But what residents really crave is a predicable commute that takes the same amount of time, every time.
[...]

The Third Rail: Transit Perceptions in the GTA

CORPORATE & PUBLIC AFFAIRS, MOBILITY
Darren Karasiuk discusses GTA residents’ views on transit and the subway vs LRT debate

I'll keep looking. Can't find a date for this article, (edit: Listed under 'polls' as March 31, ostensibly 2018) but appears to be connected with @hw621 's post above.

From the the Environics' piece quoted above:

Even a majority of those who only drive accept that they should shoulder some of the financial commitment required of a new transit system.

Now that is interesting! That's Ford's constituency by and large. THERE is the reason for optimism, not how the 'great unwashed masses of commuters' feel about things. That's also Tory's calling, whether he admits it or not.

 

[BurlOak]

Thanks to the Mods for updating the title!

Van really is an example to study in how they're managing to to co-ordinate regional transit on a multi-municipal basis. This of course hit the news very recently when (Surrey?) Mayor wanted to buck the agreed arrangements. I think that has since been resolved (phew!).

I heard the Mayor and majority of Councillor elected supported the SkyTrain over the LRT. Did those politicians double cross the electorate - I had not heard about it.?

 

[steveintoronto]

^ https://www.google.ca/search?q=skyt...58j1j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[crs1026]

A mega agency would have to impose uniform standards eg for fares per hour to justify each bus route, determine headways, etc. Things like “will we route off arterial roads into subdivisions” could have policies with GTA wide application.
There could be winners and losers. That might be good and bad, but it could take away the most creative and provident initiatives - a “if we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody” mindset arises. So best of breed is cut back in the interest of consistency.
There are currently differences in metrics, reporting, and disclosure too. A super agency needs to be held to the highest standard for transparency - an area where ML is clearly deficient at present.
Again, it’s be careful what you ask for.
- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not a big fan of the mega-agency concept.

It can serve to make this unwieldy and less responsive rather than more efficient or coordinated.

That said, there is room for some consolidation.

I would favour merging Burlington and Oakville transit(s) into Halton Regional Transit.

The value for cross-border coordination and savings is real there, as it is in Niagara Region and in Windsor and surrounding areas.

I'm also open to, though less convinced of the need for an amalgamated Peel Region transit.

But I think that's about where I would stop.

Though clearly planning needs to be better coordinated (what Metrolinx is supposed to achieve....results notwithstanding); along with things like better cross-border fare policies (previously announced...but 'under review')

 

[BurlOak]

I'm not a big fan of the mega-agency concept.

It can serve to make this unwieldy and less responsive rather than more efficient or coordinated.

That said, there is room for some consolidation.

I would favour merging Burlington and Oakville transit(s) into Halton Regional Transit.

The value for cross-border coordination and savings is real there, as it is in Niagara Region and in Windsor and surrounding areas.

I'm also open to, though less convinced of the need for an amalgamated Peel Region transit.

But I think that's about where I would stop.

Though clearly planning needs to be better coordinated (what Metrolinx is supposed to achieve....results notwithstanding); along with things like better cross-border fare policies (previously announced...but 'under review')

The highway system is the model they will use. Province controls high capacity freeways (generaally). Cities control local and collector roads.
Transit equivalent. Province controls Regional transit (GO) and high capacity (subway). Cities control local (bus) and collector (streetcar and LRT).

 

[Northern Light]

The highway system is the model they will use. Province controls high capacity freeways (generaally). Cities control local and collector roads.
Transit equivalent. Province controls Regional transit (GO) and high capacity (subway). Cities control local (bus) and collector (streetcar and LRT).

Except they've already said that is not the model they will use.

They've already said local agencies, specifically the TTC will retail operational control.

That also is a completely different discussion from the mega-agency issue.

The subway idea, is simply an accounting conversation.

If the province can carry the subway on their books as an asset, they lower their net debt.

 

[nfitz]

Province controls Regional transit (GO) and high capacity (subway). Cities control local (bus) and collector (streetcar and LRT).

More likely I'd think that the province would continue to control the existing rapid transit lines they already control (the LRTs), and upload the subway lines and the SRT. I don't see the province downloading Line 5 or Line 6 (assuming they don't cancel the latter).

 

[mdrejhon]

Government-Created Masterplanning Maps & Proposals

I've always been fascinated by the 25-year masterplanning cycles for public transit and regional transit, often done by different transit agencies but now much more co-operatively (TTC, Metrolinx, etc).

Eventually, UrbanToronto.ca should write an article about the history of 25-year masterplans (I'd be happy to donate this post to such an article, just co-credit me and image sources).

Here is a small sampling of major 25-year masterplans:

Network 2011 -- Mid-80s masterplanning

View attachment 141465

Covered in Transit Toronto and Wikipedia, this is TTC's 1985 masterplanning for year 2011. Suffice to say, we never got this far due to the politics of the era and the 1991 recession. So many failed dreams, but also very short in ambition, and not very well-coordinated with GO's first dreams to electrify (the ICTS proposals).

Metrolinx 2031 / The Big Move -- Mid-2000s masterplanning
View attachment 141470

As GO Transit was turned into Metrolinx, The Big Move finally came out. There's a really comprehensive section on Metrolinx's site and on Wikipedia. In a shorter 15-year masterplanning time horizon, there is also the MoveOntario 2020 plan and the GO 2020 plan.
Metrolinx 2041 RTP -- Mid-2010s masterplanning
View attachment 141473

Already covered in this UrbanToronto flagship article. Much more collaboration with TTC and other transit agencies than ever. Refines Metrolinx 2031, adjust for the Transit City roller coaster politics, and current political wranglings. Roughly two-thirds of similar elements to Metrolinx 2031 appears to have significant momentum (TPAPs, funding, EAs, etc) and some refinements as a result of recent Metrolinx 2041 public consultations on the Metrolinx 2041 RTP (pdf)

Failed Dreams
So many failed dreams here, but a clear pattern is that over the last few decades have shown increased intensity of eagerness to keep masterplanning transit in Toronto's huge pressures to densify. We're finally at least punching some projects through. Yet we keep demanding more projects to be begun, even as many projects have been buffered-up into the pipeline.

Extent of Average Political Damage Seems Slowly Decreasing Over Decades
Many of us still remember major cancellations such as mid-construction abortions (e.g. such as the Eglinton subway fill-in of the 1990s). Perception is that political damage is slowly decreasing over the decades, many Transit City LRTs have survived (so far), the Relief Line is feeling real close to reality, both Brampton/Mississauga and Scarborough are getting bones (Hurontario LRT and Scarborough subway) even as we debate fiercely over their merits. Politicians slowly get less power to cancel projects permanently. Seeing most Transit City get resurrected after years, unlike 1911 "DRL" plans or 1960s era TTC subway plans.

Metrolinx best thing ever to Toronto Transit despite scandals?
Under this POV, it feels like Metrolinx despite "scandals", may have been the best-ever thing to happen to Toronto Transit scene.

Indeed, for many people, the jury is still out in many people's opinions and we need to see more of the "good" routes complete like the Crosstown, Relief Line, turning GO into a frequent metro (under whatever brand names people argue about), and more, to start finally "feeling" the true fruits of these persistently urgent 25-year masterplanning.

What is happening is a miracle because roughly two-thirds of elements of the earlier Metrolinx 2031 masterplan (or very roughly similar counterparts) are already in progress, funded, completed EA, have RFQs or RFPs.

Metrolinx has succeeded that high a percentage on an earlier masterplan. This is far beyond any Canadian transit agency (dissapointing HSR bus expansions, stalled TTC subway plans, etc). Now Metrolinx is funding more local transit and Doug Ford is actually transferring the Yonge Subway from City of Toronto over to Metrolinx. Doug Ford is giving the subways to Metrolinx -- we don't necessarily agree on that, but it shows that there is no chance of Metrolinx disbanding -- as some may desire having read only sensational bad news headlines in the papers.

While some of us are dissapointed at some inefficient spends or line-items, regardless of fault, political-wise, agency-wise, engineering-wise, contractor-wise or other reason). Even as we are late, behind schedule until it is finally built, fume about Presto glitches until we find we really love the convenience after all, some scream "boondoggle" at UP Express before their turnaround popularity (UPX at new price is popular now with standees, 4 times more ridership, the now-popular UPX now pays bigger % of farebox than Hamilton HSR), credit where credit due -- so many projects much further along in Toronto history than in any previous 25-year masterplanning cycle. The good old "Boondoggle-screamers" have not gotten the memo about UPX, they should ride the UPX at peak. They DO tend to learn from their lessons, unlike many other options, and keep going. In that view, Metrolinx is one of the best things that happened to GTHA.

Things like the Presto (complaints like $1bn spend, slow 24hour load time, deployment glitches) can be a bone of contention for many people who don't use Presto. However, Presto is still an amazing system that has successfully tied 12 transit agencies together into one farecard system. Stretches all way from Hamilton through Ottawa. So it is one of the world's most complex farecard systems behind the scenes. But simplifying fares for end users. Deployment glitches are annoying but Presto has been stable for a long time in Ottawa and GO Transit, etc. Once glitches are ironed out and more mature areas, the system tends to be amazing for actual users in terms of convenience. The 24-hour fareload delays are not a problem when you load the card at a vending machine. Many international farecard systems don't even let you load the farecard online -- unlike Presto which lets you (even if it's 24 hour). If you hate 24 hour delay, just go presto vending machine and the card is refilled instantly in 15 seconds (YouTube video proof of Presto refill in 15 seconds). Even Hamilton downtown station only has the slower/older vending machine in the bus area which aren't good. But the improved Toronto Presto vending machines are coming to Hamilton LRT and they can be used to refill for HSR buses too.

Back to the master plans -- while less than a quarter is complete, many are in progress, funded, EA, RFP, RFQ, construction, delivery -- e.g. Eglinton Crosstown under construction. Even while things like West Harbour GO station idles waiting for the extra track to be built (2018 Canal bridge finished, 2019 Confederation GO station under construction, etc), the infrastructure will gradually become much more heavily used. Unfortunately, these pre-requisite delays also happen elsewhere (e.g. much like how certain freeways are idle in Ontario -- like that unused segment of the billion-dollar Windsor freeway extension to the yet-unbuilt USA bridge yet to begin construction -- so it's not just a Metrolinx thing).

While we should have construction in a more efficient sequence/order -- we're wasting far less on repeatedly-cancelled projects of past decades. Even many Transit City routes have resurrected. We're early in the Big Move cycle, it does not feel like progress at all yet but many shovels are already in the ground. The big benefits don't appear until near the end of a 25-year cycle.

The glass is figuratively more than half full. We haven't drank it yet (whether you view it as healthy water or unhealthy kool aid, is subject to debate). Regardless of your opinion of Metrolinx or TTC or both, a much more successful-percentage 25-year planning cycle is still fantastic for the whole of Ontario.

Just less than 5 years ago, GO trains were hourly on Lakeshore. Now the talk is that in the fairly near future (possibly as early as 2019) -- GO Trains are planned to be every 15 minutes on Lakeshore. That's a massive improvement. Niagara GO extension is already well under construction with the Confederation GO and Grimsby GO construction sites (which will finally make West Harbour GO a more heavily used station within a few years).

The Future: Greater Golden Horseshoe 2051 Plan
It will be fascinating to see how this slowly evolves towards the 2051 Master Plan (presumably Metrolinx 2051). Some early thinkings have begun towards that as GGH2051 (Greater Golden Horseshoe 2051 Plan) which is done by Ontario Ministry of Transport. This would presumably have elements rolled into 2051 Regional Transport Plan consultations (Metrolinx or whatever name they have then) beginning around the year 2026.

25-Year Masterplanning Cycles Timed to Census Predictions
There appears a very clear intent is to refine/continue 25-year masterplanning cycles once every census decade. It is clear this is logical to continue to keep refining as best as we can, regardless of politics.

 

[mdrejhon]

Above post is another view of Metrolinx, as a crosspost from 25-year masterplanning thread

The overall grade of Metrolinx being a PASS/FAIL is a bit simplistic -- one has to consider that Metrolinx is an improvement over the status quo that came immediately before it. What came before Metrolinx was actually an F grade in some ways but Metrolinx raised the stakes -- and ambitious intentions have come to shortfall but we have now seen many benefits. The important thing is -- what will happen over the next 10 years? GTHA is horrendously complicated, and it was a tall ambitious order to try to bring them all under one umbrella. But now it's being done incrementally, in a much slower journey of transit integration -- far more is being done than before Metrolinx even if not remotely nearly enough and also disappointingly little for many.

Doing a true "Superlinx" will potentially require far more operating cost than Metrolinx, and I'm not sure that GTHA is ready to stomach that yet -- this is not something that can be easily done in one generation. Any path forward may be heinously expensive and hard for the Premier to stomach.

Superlinx is a bigger Metrolinx at the and of the day. Are we ready for that?