GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload

[nfitz]

"very" right wing lol find a new tune

Of the right-wing governments we've had in the past - Harris, Eves, Miller, Davis, Robarts - this is arguably the most right-wing government. I'm not sure how this isn't a very accurate description.

If I'd called them extreme right-wing or far right-wing, you might have a point. Otherwise, I don't know the point this other than trolling.

We all know what the history of what the post-Davis right-wing governments (particularly Miller and Harris) have done to transit expansion in the past - those that are further right. While the less right-wing Progressive Conservative governments (Robarts, Davis, Eves, etc.) have had more service expansion, etc.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

My apologies, I re-read your post a number of times, and couldn't quite catch the intent.

I was just reading up on TfL, and of course they, like many European and other nations, aren't federations, and there's really two levels of government: National and Municipal. [snip]
Any talk of improving any of Ontario's transit needs is forever tied in knots until we elect a provincial regime bent on change. Change to liberate progress, not to punish it.
In the event, we've got an early start on the discussion when and if Ford et al do upload the subways.

It can be tricky comparing apples and oranges. As Bill 5 reminded us, we're all totally at the behest of the province. So it's unlikely we'd have something quite like TfL, where the legislative context is entirely different, and even something like the MTA in New York might be "illegal" in the Ontario context. Even creating Metrolinx was a huge step forward compared to the nothing we had before. But, aside from RER, they're basically at the limits of what they can accomplish, I think. They need a longer leash to do thinks properly.

I understand the concerns about lowest-common-denominator but there's no reason it has to be that way, especially if you leave subsidiary agencies with sufficient power to manage these kinds of things. I think it's dishonest, or at least pie-in-the-sky, to suggest the Finch West is going to get the same frequencies as some route in East Gwillimbury, just because it's one transit authority.

Superlinx, as proposed, doesn't quite cut it in my book. But I find Toronto's resistance to playing nice with others, in any context, tiresome.

And, yeah, it would take a government with some cojones to cut Metrolinx loose; to, for example, create road tolls and have that money go directly to Metrolinx, for them to spend with no government sayso. I'm pretty sure the current government doesn't qualify. But if you look around Planet Earth, that's the way forward. Doing things the way TTC does them is obsolete and holding us back.

 

[Neutrino]

Politicizing one's argument undermines it even if one makes a good point. This is why some of the "downtown left" arguments don't get traction in the suburbs (and vice versa I suppose). It has to do with the way one phrases and frames their message. Moreover, in the circles I inhabit, the terms "far right," "extreme right," and "very right wing" are overused to such an extreme extent that they lack credibility with me and many, many other Ontarians. Moreover, dubbing the Cons "far right" is just as likely a symptom of the far left tendencies sweeping certain segments of society.

 

[steveintoronto]

As Bill 5 reminded us, we're all totally at the behest of the province.

For the transit file, agreed. As much as many think the provincial power is absolute, however, I disagree, and some pending court rulings might be the start of eroding that. It will take a long time though for that to bring any palpable change on the provincial level. This is a whole discussion in itself, and perhaps for another string.

And, yeah, it would take a government with some cojones to cut Metrolinx loose; to, for example, create road tolls and have that money go directly to Metrolinx, for them to spend with no government sayso. I'm pretty sure the current government doesn't qualify. But if you look around Planet Earth, that's the way forward. Doing things the way TTC does them is obsolete and holding us back.

I was just thinking about how abstract that is, but you allude to an answer, and we already have an MPP sitting with the right answers (so it seems): The Green Party of Ontario. I always dismissed them as being 'green-washed' (I had my share of them being surrounded in Guelph)(they meant well, but they all had clean fingernails and ate the right kind of yogurt while doing yoga) but I was very impressed with the logical and well researched and referenced platform Schreiner presents. Perhaps the present regime brutalizing everything they touch might swing Ontarians towards something more logical and caring? *Perhaps...*

 

[steveintoronto]

Posters: Just so this string doesn't die a quick death from topic surmise irrelevance, could/should we ask the Mods to add "TTC subway upload" to the title? It's not the subject in entirety, but the most likely flash point for it. The shid is about to hit the fan on it if the Cons' talk is to be believed (a good question in itself).

I didn't realize until digging on it that it wasn't just Ford's instigation, it was part of Patrick Brown's platform before his unfortunate 'accident'. In other words, it's ingrained in this present regime's cause d'être.

I wonder what Brown's position on this is now he's Mayor of Brampton?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Posters: Just so this string doesn't die a quick death from topic surmise irrelevance, could/should we ask the Mods to add "TTC subway upload" to the title? It's not the subject in entirety, but the most likely flash point for it. The shid is about to hit the fan on it if the Cons' talk is to be believed (a good question in itself).

Or “Ontario/GGHA Transit Amalgamation”.

 

[steveintoronto]

Or “Ontario/GGHA Transit Amalgamation”.

Yeah, perhaps 'subway upload' could be added to the title details, but absolutely agreed, we need a more encompassing title. Leave "Superlinx" in the sub-title description so it will show as a search tag.

This really is a massive topic getting buried in the already very polarized SSE and other strings. I already see new alliances and commonality of cause from posters who've been polar opposites in other strings.

Another related topic to this is going to be "DBFOM". A lot of Ontarians have a skewed idea of what it means, which is very unfortunate, as we're about to be drowned in its misrepresentation.

It's a tool, not a political trick, albeit it does lend itself to accounting shenanigans from all political stripes. And we're about to see much more of it.

 

[Neutrino]

UT's political realignment. I wonder who will champion UT's Southern Strategy. Who's our Nixon?

 

[ssiguy2]

In many way with the GTA`s collection of transit fiefdoms who often seem more preoccupied with maintaining their turf than moving people it makes sense. Transit in Toronto is a ridiculous collection of uncoordinated systems. Metrolinx was beyond incompetent especially when it came to the essential issue of both fare and route integration. Vancouver has done a far superior job with Translink and made better by the fact that it is also responsible for bikeways, walkways, and regional roads in an effort to make the entire transportation system integrated.

As far as Ford gutting the system, I doubt it and frankly it might be LESS likely to face spending cuts then the current disjointed model. Ford gets little political support from the City itself and far more in the 905 so he would be loath to cut funding that would hurt his base. Also it`s easy to pick on Toronto City and it gets no empathy from anyone in Ontario outside it`s border as it`s often viewed as being spoiled enough as it is. It would harder to make this argument and make the City a scapegoat for transit spending cuts when all of a sudden it is opposed by a much larger area...……...bullying one kid who everyone hates {including the teacher} is, unfortunately, easy but picking on an entire classroom is far more problematic.

 

[mdrejhon]

The level of right-wingness from the transit POV does appear to vary over the generations.

The number of people demanding transit, the Texting generation, the optics of social media powered transit advocacies (one of which I participate in), the increase in people less interested in driving, Teens less interesres in getting driver licenses, the densification of Toronto.

Transit needs 100 years ago, 50 years ago, today, 50 years from now, and 100 years from now. Davis cancelled the Spadina freeway nearly 50 years ago. The Eglinton subway got buried nearly 25 years ago. We are far beyond the Harris transit slaughter, that it is no longer a strong precedent of what is to come with Ford. Even a Hamilton LRT "cancellation" is simply a postponement to 2022 election, and even Ottawa's LRT got resurrected.

We're resetting to a new transportation equilibrium. We did overshoot to auto-frenzy - the wonderful aura of finally being to afford a 1920s Model T Ford, to glow of the 1939 GM Futurama at New York World's Fair leading directly to 1950s politicians getting the Eisenhower Interstate System built, and our childhood fascination with roadtrips through fancy interchanges, the freedom of driving anywhere, the American Dream. Oh, and the underbelly aspects, the razing of downtowns for expressways, removal of streetcars (and conspiracy theories that the auto lobby predicated this), non-maintenance of subways till they were so miserable in the 70s - see NYC urine+grafitti subway reputation back then. But it's now rebalancing. Los Angeles 70s smog as bad as Beijing today. The bane of peak hour and induced demand. Sure. We'll still love our car, but the overshoot to excessive bias to cars of the 20th century is now rebalancing. Roads will stay, but the ratio (indep vehs : transit) will evolve. With that, Even right-wing Ford agrees transit is an important part of society unlike many in mid-century America. Hold our noses, myself included (I'm a supporter of BI and 21st centiry sex-ed), but grudging credit where due - it ain't 1950s mentality anymore.

We're going to mainly get token cutbacks like RER wateringdowns, surgical adjustments like readjusting schedule of Stoufville trains, line-item delays to Big Move (e.g. an LRT doesn't get funded as quickly), but with more transit increases on average -- many projects will still proceed. Permanent wholesale cancellations evolve into alternate solutions.

The problem is we are wasting lots of time bickering while delaying transit that will now inevitably get built, mostly just a decade later than planned.

We must work to not let unnecessary time-wasting and money-wasting happen for transit.
Few agree how to proceed, alas.

Superlinx might help - eventually. But it's a scary Pandora's Box.

 

[hw621]

How many decades do we have (as individual transit riders)?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In many way with the GTA`s collection of transit fiefdoms who often seem more preoccupied with maintaining their turf than moving people it makes sense. Transit in Toronto is a ridiculous collection of uncoordinated systems. Metrolinx was beyond incompetent especially when it came to the essential issue of both fare and route integration.

This is true - and I don't know much about how things went down in Vancouver - but we have a disconnect because of how TTC operates. First, they are disproportionately large - I think it's 85% of the entire region's ridership, give or take? And also, they are barely subsidized. So, the province has been nudging towards regionalism with Places to Grow and Metrolinx, but without totally diving in. TTC might be willing to cede some authority if some cold, hard cash was coming along with it, for example.

Fare integration has been an embarrassment. The stuff going on at York University now is a microcosm of a systemic failure. It's hard to completely blame Metrolinx given Toronto's disproportionate power in this arena and given that, at the end of the day, the Metrolinx buck stops in the Premier's office. If Wynne or Ford or whomever wanted to force the issue, they could.

As for Ford, the one thing I've learned from these guys is not to even try to guess. I'm prepared for anything! I don't think he's Mike Harris; which is both good and bad. I don't think a subway upload is inherently bad, but I think it has to be done right and he does little to inspire confidence. It would be nice to think he sees it as the leading edge of a wider regional integration, that includes fare integration, better governance etc. but there is little to suggest that, especially given his reticence to even support the already-agreed-to RER fare system.

We've been bickering and delaying forever here and I don't think people appreciates the damage it does. It took until 2017 for TTC to get a flawed version of the kind of fare card that actual "world class cities" have been using since the 1980s. Sometimes I read stuff - from smart people, mind you - about how a regional authority would kill local service etc., and it's downright depressing.

 

[steveintoronto]

Thanks to the Mods for updating the title!

Metrolinx was beyond incompetent especially when it came to the essential issue of both fare and route integration. Vancouver has done a far superior job with Translink and made better by the fact that it is also responsible for bikeways, walkways, and regional roads in an effort to make the entire transportation system integrated.

Van really is an example to study in how they're managing to to co-ordinate regional transit on a multi-municipal basis. This of course hit the news very recently when (Surrey?) Mayor wanted to buck the agreed arrangements. I think that has since been resolved (phew!). Van, like Montreal, is a difficult model to emulate for the GTHA. More on that later, it's an excellent point.

Ford gets little political support from the City itself and far more in the 905 so he would be loath to cut funding that would hurt his base.

This is an ongoing spectre. I hope you're right. Many agree with you, purely out of being optimists. I'm a lot more cynical, put it down to age and a politically sensitive background. You see a glass half full, I see it half empty. This string presages the worst I think. It's not Ford's political stance as much as his incredibly inept bungling that has me concerned. A 'bull in a china shop' is not an apt simile. Bulls have far more grace and intelligence. To be continued...

Also it`s easy to pick on Toronto City and it gets no empathy from anyone in Ontario outside it`s border as it`s often viewed as being spoiled enough as it is.

Which of course, is based on ignorance. Toronto is very poorly funded for transit. That being said, the TTC (and Council Cmtes) have been disastrously run, and continue to be. Further to that is the straight-jacket of the Toronto Act.

the increase in people less interested in driving, Teens less interesres in getting driver licenses,

This is a very potent point, and it's not just the GTHA. It's trans-national, but in Canada, oddly, Calgary seems to lead on this. Allowing zoning with very few if any spaces to park. We have a bit of a problem with Tory in that regard. We have a hell of a problem with Ford. Again, oddly, this brings us back to the "Right v. Left" point discussed prior by some. In other nations (admittedly much smaller geographically than Canada) less vehicle use is the centre of the platforms of many Conservative parties. And this used to be the case with the OntCons, as others have pointed out. It was *Davis* who stopped the Spadina Xprssway. I'm biting my lip as I'm typing, realizing my age skews my overview on present convoluted political persuasions.

I stated this in one of the political strings a week or so back, and it was misunderstood, but I'll state it again: Ontario needs a party at the centre...like the Libs and Cons both used to be. I don't see the Libs regaining it, and certainly not the Cons unless they implode (entirely possible given the characters at the wheel now). The Greens, by default, seem to have the best articulated vision of seeing beyond the next election, but proposing solutions that straddle decades.

We're going to mainly get token cutbacks like RER wateringdowns, or line-item delays to Big Move (e.g. an LRT doesn't get funded as quickly), but with more transit increases on average -- many projects will still proceed.

Huge sigh. I hope you're right. As you know, I'm not optimistic. Ford is hell-bent on destruction. And he's a liar.

How many decades do we have (as individual transit riders)?

I'm now well past retirement, albeit in phenomenal shape, years of cancer besides (thyroid cancer can have a pay-off if you survive the amount I had) but hell for me is to be caught in the rush hour on transit. I used to look at pics of the 'passenger pushers' they have in Japan and other Far Eastern nations and think "can you imagine?". Well, it's here and now in Toronto. I don't know what to add, save that given having to do that day to day in Toronto again, I'd leave. It's untenable.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm okay with it. At the end of the day, transit construction is entirely at the mercy of the province. If it's going to be that way, let them wear it. MPPs won't be able to hide behind councillors and mayors any more.

Ideally, in my books Metrolinx takes over everything but feeder buses. This includes roads, ferries and taxi licensing. They get to build higher order transit wherever they want and they par for it. They get to build avenues and freeways. They get to impose regional taxes and tolls. Cities can pay for whatever level of bus service they want. This creates accountability. And the public knows exactly who to blame.

 

[crs1026]

Metrolinx was conceived as a way of bringing coordination and bigger picture thinking to a very disjointed and parochial network of municipal operators. It has failed, for several reasons... only one being that it had no prescriptive authority and could neither drive nor impede actions and behaviours in local organizations. Putting all transit properties together might change that, but at a cost of creating a monolith that creates as many problems as it solves. Does anyone argue for reconstituting the old pre-1999 Ontario Hydro, even with all our electricity woes?

There’s little reason to believe that a unified transit operator would achieve economies - there is no redundancy in bus garages, operating infrastructure, etc. in Ontario. Perhaps service planning, customer service, finance, security etc might find some efficiencies. But those budgets pale compared to the more central cost of capital investment, fuel, maintenance, and operator wages.

It’s interesting to see New York cited as a model. Sure there is some consolidation, but Amtrak, Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit, PATH, MTA, and the ferries are not one property. Their decisionmaking is not perfect, but somehow decisions get made.

If I were going to start somewhere, it would be to upload the bus networks, not the subways. There might be room there to integrate better and remove some parochial influences, or at least force them into view. But be careful what you ask for.... wages will rise to the highest current benchmark, service will find a single standard which may not be everything it is now. MPPs will become the dealmakers in bus service decisions.

- Paul