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Graffiti

This is all very fascinating....but what does it have to do with graffiti???

"Back in my day, kids had respect!"...and there was graffiti back then too. People have been carving their names in to shit since the dawn of time.

And if you argue that's not the case, or that there's more now than ever before (because of our poor parenting practices)...what do you propose our municipal government does with this information? City-run parenting classes?

Got a little off track there. I admit it. I just see the clear connect the dots pattern with a lot of attitudes and behavior that we keep asking "where is this coming from".

I had originally suggested that we just turn a blind eye to lots of negative behavior like widespread vandalism instead of actually condemning and holding people responsible like parents who don't know where their kids are at night for example. As for government response? Well, since they keep growing the nanny state they're just as much a part of the problem as the individuals running around acting like luggans.

Perfect example of luggan behavior out of control is what happened on the streetcar today. 2 white teen guys got on and proceeded to blast their iPhone and then began inspecting their dope out in the open. This is broad day light. When I stood up and looked at them, the music went down and the bag closed.

When did this now frequent, moronic and obnoxious trend become the norm and so accepted? So graffiti and other acts of public vandalism will continue until we collectively say "enough". When I stop seeing so many young minors and teens out late at night unsupervised then I might start having hope again. Or when parents actually start grounding and taking away their kid's privileges.

The real underlying problem is that society doesn't set proper guidelines for respectful attitudes anymore and this includes good role models. Not the crap that Hollywood peddles.
 
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Artists can add their art to a streetscape without damaging property. I imagine chalk is easier to remove if desired.

chalk_artist__lust_by_exquisitevici-d3cqmu3.jpg

Photo by Exquisitevici.
 
Believe it or not, tkip, I find that if you want an exemplary barometer for "responsible parenting" (even w/regard to graffiti et al), just refer to those Ford Nation-loathing "urban liberals" who hang around Dufferin Grove or Trinity-Bellwoods. And if you want the opposite...well, look at those Lingerie Football League Fords, or the so-called stupid, unsophisticated, tasteless idiots who support them. *They're* the ones whose kids are more likely to be the tagging, gang-banging louts.

And, seriously, who on earth uses words like "luggans" these days, other than the more radical World Youth Day bunch.

Like, if we were to figure an architectural judgment analogue to tkip's parenting/upbringing philosophy, this'd be "lugganism"

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and this'd be a virtuous model

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I have no idea what a 'luggan' is. Google gives links about people who have the last name 'Luggan'. Urbandictionary even has no clue...that's not a good sign.
 
Artists can add their art to a streetscape without damaging property. I imagine chalk is easier to remove if desired.

Perhaps it's just me but I enjoy the sidewalk chalk artists.
 
Assuming you were referring to my comments. Again there is this backlash when questioning parenting techniques and what we allow young people to get away with now.

As a man in his mid 40's that's observed many types of parenting and the consequences over the decades and seen the slippery slope of what passes for parenting these days, yeah, I most certainly can voice an opinion on what I think is dysfunctional parenting and the outcome.

People keep denying the trend but parenting has been dumbed down and parents have literally handed the power over to the kids. I work with several young people where they mouth off, their rude, trashy, lazy, use vulgar language, deal drugs at work, they have a sense of entitlement and whine when they don't get their way.

Contrast this my close friends with kids where there are rules/boundaries and consequences and yes, tough love.

They have standards and expectations for the kids and don't tolerate disrespect and there's no such thing as the kids mouthing off. There are curfews and there is hell to be paid if the rules aren't followed. One friend raised his 2 daughters with this approach and they both have done well in school, have active social lives and are all around, decent and well behaved ladies.

Same for these portuguese sisters I use to work with. Parents set the standards, the girls followed the rules and paid the price for disobeying their parents. The parents had expectations for the girls and that was final. When the parents said "no"? End of discussion. They weren't allowed to run around late at night or come or go as they pleased.

Now 2 are married to their sweethearts, have good jobs with the youngest at university and doing quite well. The girls have turned out to be fine, decent, hard working women that don't act like many of the luggans running around now thinking they're special and untouchable. There was tough love when needed and it worked.

All of this comes from a similar background where the parents simply don't tolerate and indulge their kids to be brats.

If many more parents and greater society as a whole took this approach and we didn't cater to the the ego of the individual to the insane extent we do now, then many of our current problems such as widespread vandalism and hordes of young people tearing up streets in clubland late at night while still living with their parents wouldn't be occuring on the scale it is now.

Or a host of other social problems. We have a gen of narcissistic people now that think they should be able to whatever they feel like. This didn't happen over night.

well I have kids, raise them well, set boundaries and rules, etc. etc... you're really starting to sound like many other crusty old farts, who believe every generation that comes after them are worse than their generation... stop waving your angry fist in the air yelling "get of my grass" all kids are the same in every generation, When I grew up in the 70's/80's there were more kids out late at night than I see today, there was just as much drug use and there was just as much disrespect by youth of yesterday as their is of kids today... let me guess the music was better then too?

and if you don't have kids, yes you can have an opinion but realize one thing you haven't the slightest clue as to how to raise kids because you haven't done it. I have never flown a jet, I understand the theory but wouldn't have a clue as to how to do it without some practice.
 
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I have no idea what a 'luggan' is. Google gives links about people who have the last name 'Luggan'. Urbandictionary even has no clue...that's not a good sign.

I'll tell you where I heard the term. Luggan basically means "punk".

This is the term that Mike Stafford uses to describe young idiots. He also uses the term "precious snowflakes" to describe the kids of over-indulgent parents. The man is funny as hell and I don't know if he actually coined these terms himself or borrowed them from another source.

So now you guys know where I got this term from and what it means.
 
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well I have kids, raise them well, set boundaries and rules, etc. etc... you're really starting to sound like many other crusty old farts, who believe every generation that comes after them are worse than their generation... stop waving your angry fist in the air yelling "get of my grass" all kids are the same in every generation, When I grew up in the 70's/80's there were more kids out late at night than I see today, there was just as much drug use and there was just as much disrespect by youth of yesterday as their is of kids today... let me guess the music was better then too?

and if you don't have kids, yes you can have an opinion but realize one thing you haven't the slightest clue as to how to raise kids because you haven't done it. I have never flown a jet, I understand the theory but wouldn't have a clue as to how to do it without some practice.

Well, I am getting older so I have a different filter but I could give a rat's ass if people think I'm getting crusty.

Seeing too much nonsense as the years pass and I've been around plenty of my friends with their kids and I know what good parenting is and isn't. I've lived in questionable neighborhoods and seen first hand what wrong, dumb parenting leads to. I don't have to be in the driver's seat to recognize bad driving. And you saying that there were more kids out late at night back in the 70's and 80's is a pure BS.

Back then the only kids out late and unsupervised were getting into trouble and their parents didn't care. I was a kid in the 70's and most of us had curfews. I constantly have conversations with older co-workers around my age or somewhat younger who are always expressing amazement at seeing all the really young kids running late at night with no curfews now.

When I was young, you couldn't talk back to your parents or a teacher or any adult. It was unthinkable to call your parent a name, by their name, hang up on them or make demands of them. You couldn't just wander around till 12 at night at 15 and not have your parents go ballastic when you got home.

You had to sneak around and hope your parents didn't catch you because you knew serious shit would happen if it did and it did. We had to do chores and help out around the house.

There was no allowance. In bed well before 11 as a teen. At 18, I still had a curfew. My brother and I weren't allowed to bring girls to our rooms because my mother said "hell, no". My mother would always say "remember, this is my house. You just happen to be living in it" And if we didn't like the rules?

She would point to the door and say "good luck". And she was right. It was her house and we had to respect the rules because she was in charge. No questions asked.

And was there drug use back when I was a teen? Yeah but we kept it to parties. We didn't go down to the club district and trash clubs, property and act in the most immature and luggan way as many on this board have rightly so, accused the mass hordes of club goers and particularily those from the 905 area. Though our own urban youth are just as bad.

Now numerous co-workers, all from the same age group, come to work stoned, get stoned at work and are pretty much useless. When I was a teen, it was still taboo to be so public about doing drugs and the stoners were seen as losers. I could go on and on but I know I'm talking to a wall here.

What I've learned is that people who the most often accuse you of being some crusty throw back to a backwards age and just roll their eyes are either really young OR always seem to be from the left and ignore the explosion of social problems including parenting and kids that society suffers from now.

There's a huge denial machine out there trying to shut down any attempt to bring attention to this explosion and the link with parenting and unhealthy cultural themes, namely entertainment and mass media. What passes for culture now for the most part is trash. What society has become for the most part is trash.

We pander unhealthy themes to kids and have lost our way. Just recently I watched Bill Maher agree with the Tiger Mom author on his show because he basically said the same thing about our youth and young adults now. They're stupid, they're trashy and they think the world owes them. And he puts the entire blame on the parents.

And he's absolutely right. Remember this next time you guys try to figure out why so many people run around trashing things that don't belong to them.
 
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"Crusty old fart"? Ha! But he's only in his 40s. Might have something to do with the fact that he listens to Stafford. Like my old man: insular, socially inept, and, yes..crusty. Except my old man's almost 60 so he almost has an excuse.

Oh wow...I was a kid in the 90s and most of us had curfews...what the bloody hell are you on about, really? The 70s were so magical that graff as we know it originated then. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Mr Nostalgia.

and we kept drug use "to parties". Yeah, sorry...I do meth everywhere I go now...you know, not having been raised in the righteous 70s.

And you couldn't talk back to your parents...wow....because the rest of us did....and HOW! :rolleyes:

Seriously, I don't know what kind of nostalgia-encrusted memory you have but it's clouding your perception of reality. You should get that checked out. Nothing you mentioned as being the norm back in your day (the 70s sucked rocks, by the way) is news to my relatively young self...nor to most of my generational compatriots...you just think it is.

Now, I hope you'll excuse me as I do a line of meth, cuss me mum, and go piss on a monument....oh yeah, and I'm writing this from my work computer..ha! because I am young and I was raised in the 90s and I am the bane of society.
 
hhhmmmmmm LSD + Summer of love 1967??
graffiti's hay day of full cars in NYC 1972+
Detroit Riots 1967, Watts riots 1968, Newark Riots 1969
Proliferation of pot into mainstrream culture... 1967+
Kent State massacre 1970
Manson Family murders 1970



your right, the world was soooooo much better back then, kids today are out of control, nothing like this happened in the 70's everyone was so well kept and properly behaved....
I remember my grandfather ranting in the 70's about how his father thought his generation was the worst thing to happen to the world...
 
"Crusty old fart"? Ha! But he's only in his 40s. Might have something to do with the fact that he listens to Stafford. Like my old man: insular, socially inept, and, yes..crusty. Except my old man's almost 60 so he almost has an excuse.

Yeah, there seems to be something awfully...weird about tkip as Mike Stafford acolyte. Like, a really culturally stunted filter through which to judge the culturally stunted.

Indeed, if I may judge from whatever tkip's related of himself and his family and views, his problem is that he's a peasant. His background may be one of "values"; but it still sounds to me to be terribly simple-minded and unsophisticated. And he's speaking of his peasant peers and next-generations--but again: let's bring the UT tradition of urban-form-discussion into this. In the end, those kids who vandalize in the name of graffiti and public ill-manners are no different from their elders who (often much more innocently, their being untutored, unsophisticated peasants and all) vandalize in the name of gross teardowns and EIFS stucco jobs...
 
"...no different from their elders who (often much more innocently, their being untutored, unsophisticated peasants and all) vandalize in the name of gross teardowns and EIFS stucco jobs..."

Hahaaa! Thank you very much...you have made my morning (though only on account of my lovely wifey being much too grumpy upon waking this morn, as she usually does the honours).

As for barbarian generations....tkip fails to mention those uncouth bastards who came before his time and deemed it necessary to gas each other, bomb each other with nuclear arms, and murder by the hundreds of thousands. Failing to realise that my generation is, on the whole, a rather pacifist one...but, you know, we ARE terrible people not having been raised properly in the free-wheeling 90s. What a terrible generation. Horrible, terrible, sinful people! Oh woe is me! The sky is falling! The youth are murderous and rising up against all that is good and whole in this world!

I sometimes wonder how certain individuals sleep at night.
 
those uncouth bastards who came before his time and deemed it necessary to gas each other, bomb each other with nuclear arms, and murder by the hundreds of thousands

...I thought you liked americans ;)
 
Clever!...though a bit easy

I like decent people, American or otherwise.
I like graff as well. :p

I don't like hysterical curmudgeons whose view of reality is clouded by nostalgia, talk radio and/or a sterile sense of aesthetic.
Since we'll be banning spray paint....can we just go ahead and ban young people altogether? Bloody punks that they are!
 
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