GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

I suspect that ML and its workforce are behind the curve in a couple of ways.... especially in appreciating where its service peaks are and aren't. Holidays, weekends, evenings with multiple downtown events.... , these are the new peaks, Mon-Fri rush hours less so. Scheduling needs to assure that these trains are part of the service plan and not overtime opportunities that workers can accept or decline. Special events may arise on short notice (or not... who can say whether the Leafs will make the playoffs?) , but the New Years schedule ought to be known well in advance and staffed from the regular shift schedule.. Workers can't asume that they will have as many nights and holidays off as previously... Christmas and New Years are becoming just another work day for transit.

And it doesn't help when ML is so ambivalent as to committing to service improvements. No organization can plan to deliver enough newly qualified operators when the projects don't have firm committed opening dates.

And, since operations are handled by a contractor, ML will have to commit to a budget for trainees, and absorb the cost of newly trained workers, when the trains they are supplied for aren't ready to run. The contractor won't eat that cost, I'm quite sure. There will be tension between the beancounters trying to keep that cost down and operations who will want enough money to assure staffing of trains that may not launch as soon as thought.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

As seen here on r/gotransit

Union Station Departure Summary

So I’m working on creating a website which tracks which platform is used by every train that departs Union Station. Partly just because I’m interested in how often trains switch from their usual assigned platform, and partly because it will help predict which platform to wait on before it’s announced. Just thought I’d share in case others are interested.

Union Station Departure Summary

 

[reaperexpress]

That's not a realistic answer, either.

Dan

Reducing from 2 people in the cab to 1 absolutely is a realistic answer because Metrolinx is installing ETCS on the lines it's electrifying. I'm not aware of any railway system with ETCS that has more than one person in the cab. This is a discussion we need to have if we want to be able to affordably run frequent GO service. It also affects procurement of any new EMUs, since European off-the-shelf models are designed for one operator, not two. If we insist on having two operators, we may need custom-designed trains, which would significantly increase the cost compared to just buying existing European models.

 

[Bojaxs]

Reducing from 2 people in the cab to 1 absolutely is a realistic answer because Metrolinx is installing ETCS on the lines it's electrifying. I'm not aware of any railway system with ETCS that has more than one person in the cab. This is a discussion we need to have if we want to be able to affordably run frequent GO service. It also affects procurement of any new EMUs, since European off-the-shelf models are designed for one operator, not two. If we insist on having two operators, we may need custom-designed trains, which would significantly increase the cost compared to just buying existing European models.

Not that I want GO to continue their practice of 3 member crews per train, but does the Stadler Kiss's not allow for two crew members at the front?

 

[smallspy]

Reducing from 2 people in the cab to 1 absolutely is a realistic answer because Metrolinx is installing ETCS on the lines it's electrifying. I'm not aware of any railway system with ETCS that has more than one person in the cab. This is a discussion we need to have if we want to be able to affordably run frequent GO service. It also affects procurement of any new EMUs, since European off-the-shelf models are designed for one operator, not two. If we insist on having two operators, we may need custom-designed trains, which would significantly increase the cost compared to just buying existing European models.

Sure. When ETCS / whatever trackside signalling system they use ends up being installed. And assuming that Transport Canada okays it all, too.

We're 10 or more years away from that, however. And in the meantime, they have to operate within the constraints and regulations that are required to follow. Simply wishing those away isn't realistic.

So rather than wishing for things that aren't happening tomorrow, perhaps we should plan for things to work today?

Dan

 

[lastcommodore]

Sure. When ETCS / whatever trackside signalling system they use ends up being installed. And assuming that Transport Canada okays it all, too.

We're 10 or more years away from that, however. And in the meantime, they have to operate within the constraints and regulations that are required to follow. Simply wishing those away isn't realistic.

So rather than wishing for things that aren't happening tomorrow, perhaps we should plan for things to work today?

Dan

If we isolate ourselves to realistic things that can work today, the answer is nothing, as basically nothing good or smart will get past MX upper management.

 

[reaperexpress]

Sure. When ETCS / whatever trackside signalling system they use ends up being installed. And assuming that Transport Canada okays it all, too.

We're 10 or more years away from that, however. And in the meantime, they have to operate within the constraints and regulations that are required to follow. Simply wishing those away isn't realistic.

So rather than wishing for things that aren't happening tomorrow, perhaps we should plan for things to work today?

Dan

Well yeah we need to do both. But changing institutional requirements is something that needs to be done at the beginning of the planning process for resignalling, equipment procurement, track layouts etc. Which is happening right now.

If we don't start pushing Transport Canada and GO Rail Ops to update policies to enable an uncompromised ETCS rollout, Metrolinx will need to modify a proven signalling system and modify standard train designs. All of which involves wasting money that could otherwise have been spent paying people to operate trains.

I'm not saying ETCS is a solution for the immediate crisis, I'm saying we need to make noise about it so the immediate crisis doesn't continue indefinitely.

 

[smallspy]

Well yeah we need to do both. But changing institutional requirements is something that needs to be done at the beginning of the planning process for resignalling, equipment procurement, track layouts etc. Which is happening right now.

If we don't start pushing Transport Canada and GO Rail Ops to update policies to enable an uncompromised ETCS rollout, Metrolinx will need to modify a proven signalling system and modify standard train designs. All of which involves wasting money that could otherwise have been spent paying people to operate trains.

I'm not saying ETCS is a solution for the immediate crisis, I'm saying we need to make noise about it so the immediate crisis doesn't continue indefinitely.

Can I point out one thing about ETCS.....

It was the best system 10 years ago. It may not be the best system tomorrow.

Let's not focus on one sole technology for technology's sake. They reason why they are going to test on the Richmond Hill Line is because it is isolated, and will help guide the installation on future corridors - but it may also show that it can not work in the North American environment. Metroilnx may have settled on ETCS for now, but that is certainly not the only option that they have looked at, , going all the way to full-blown CBTC setups as well.

Dan

 

[lastcommodore]

Can I point out one thing about ETCS.....

It was the best system 10 years ago. It may not be the best system tomorrow.

Let's not focus on one sole technology for technology's sake. They reason why they are going to test on the Richmond Hill Line is because it is isolated, and will help guide the installation on future corridors - but it may also show that it can not work in the North American environment. Metroilnx may have settled on ETCS for now, but that is certainly not the only option that they have looked at, , going all the way to full-blown CBTC setups as well.

Dan

What alternatives are there to ETCS that are newer and more capable?

 

[crs1026]

What alternatives are there to ETCS that are newer and more capable?

I would ask the question s little differently.. it’s not like shopping for the newest and best smartphone. Something proven and popular may beat out something newer but technically unfamiliar.
There will be lessons learned out of PTC installation in the US, and HSR experience in Europe. Canadian regulators are watching and freight railroads are quietly preparing for PTC to begin implementation in Canada. They may already be comfortable with some technologies. Base formats that are already out there may come first with upgrades later.

- Paul

 

[lastcommodore]

I would ask the question s little differently.. it’s not like shopping for the newest and best smartphone. Something proven and popular may beat out something newer but technically unfamiliar.
There will be lessons learned out of PTC installation in the US, and HSR experience in Europe. Canadian regulators are watching and freight railroads are quietly preparing for PTC to begin implementation in Canada. They may already be comfortable with some technologies. Base formats that are already out there may come first with upgrades later.

- Paul

Yeah, kind of my implied point is that there really isn't a newer, better system than ETCS that i'm aware of- even ignoring the 'better tested' criteria.

You mention PTC but as far as i'm aware it doesn't increase capacity by itself. It's just meant to increase safety.

 

[crs1026]

Yeah, kind of my implied point is that there really isn't a newer, better system than ETCS that i'm aware of- even ignoring the 'better tested' criteria.

You mention PTC but as far as i'm aware it doesn't increase capacity by itself. It's just meant to increase safety.

Agreed. I wasn't saying that PTC is the right product....just that if ML said they were going with it, the regulator would already know to say "OK, sure...." whereas if they named something more esoteric, the response might need a lot more investigation.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

What alternatives are there to ETCS that are newer and more capable?

A full-blown CBTC such as what is used on the Toronto subway. Which was one of the options that was bandied about, but tossed out as requiring too much infrastructure installation for the corridor partners.

Dan

 

[lastcommodore]

A full-blown CBTC such as what is used on the Toronto subway. Which was one of the options that was bandied about, but tossed out as requiring too much infrastructure installation for the corridor partners.

Dan

Can you explain why CBTC would be a better application here?

 

[Allandale25]

This still seems to be causing some confusion. Wasn't it noted here that the four weekend Kitchener Line trains will come back after the holidays? Is a further schedule going to be posted? cc @WB62 @smallspy