GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[nfitz]

As per this CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/go-train-service-1.7505758

West Harbour will see 32 additional trains trips from GO call each week beginning in May.

This means all Niagara bound trains will stop at West Harbour, weekdays and weekends.

This does not appear to include any additional service to Niagara.

Which I think would be a mistake. They desperately need to add an additional trip each way, on weekends, for sure, if not daily.

They said that it becomes "a regular stop for all trains headed to and from the Niagara region, said Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria. That means the north-end station will soon see 32 trips added to its schedule each week, about four more a day, on average."

This does not preclude any other schedule increases (or decreases I suppose).

 

[rdaner]

^So basically Hamilton now has a meaningful commuter rail line.

 

[crs1026]

The line appear pretty straight with few grade crossings. It will also have at least one direction of new rails as it's getting double tracked. What exactly is preventing higher speeds?

Does it cost that much extra to make the line capable of higher speeds?

I would welcome higher speed, but there isn't all that much to be gained timewise from going above about 60, just too short a distance between stops. Just a lot of extra fuel used.

- Paul

 

[bearcat]

I would welcome higher speed, but there isn't all that much to be gained timewise from going above about 60, just too short a distance between stops. Just a lot of extra fuel used.

- Paul

Even with faster acceleration with electrification? Is electricity usage as much of a concern as diesel in terms of "extra fuel used"?

 

[ownthesky]

As per this CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/go-train-service-1.7505758

West Harbour will see 32 additional trains trips from GO call each week beginning in May.

This means all Niagara bound trains will stop at West Harbour, weekdays and weekends.

This does not appear to include any additional service to Niagara.

Which I think would be a mistake. They desperately need to add an additional trip each way, on weekends, for sure, if not daily.

A "weekly" 32 train service increase is such a bizarre way to describe this to the general public by the CBC. Are we trying to move as many people to and from Toronto on a weekly quota like crates of oranges?

I'd like Hamilton to start implementing transit changes sooner than later to face the reality that West Harbour is their regional transit stop, not Hamilton Centre. Currently, the city's plan is to modify the HSR bus system with the LRT, but that will be many years away. There should be more one-seat rides capable of reaching West Harbour ASAP, because otherwise there's really no incentive to bring back 30 minute service to West Harbour.

 

[Northern Light]

Even with faster acceleration with electrification? Is electricity usage as much of a concern as diesel in terms of "extra fuel used"?

Important to remember here when @crs1026 says '60'...he's meaning Mile per Hour, or 100km/ph.

Within an urbanized area, and with distances generally at or below 4km between stops, its asking alot to get to a faster speed only to slow down again almost immediately.

If you search @reaperexpress 's posts, I'm sure he's got the acceleration rate for the trains somewhere, but regardless.....it takes time to get the train up to 60mph. Its a big beast.

At 100km/ph, you could cover 4km in 2 minutes 24s.

You're obviously not going to be at that speed the whole time. So let's just say, for argument's sake that you could hit 'peak speed' for the middle 2km.

That's 1m 12s at 100km/ph

At 80mph/120km/ph that's 1 minute.

So its only a savings of 12 seconds.

My at-speed math is solid, but as I noted, I don't know the exact curves on acceleration/braking.

But whether its such that you could shave as little as 8 seconds or as much as 20s its not a terribly exciting number over that distance.

I grant, its cumulative.......but still we're talking 2 minutes 'ish across most of the line?

 

[crs1026]

@Northern Light took the math, er words right out of my mouth, spreadsheet ;-)

It's 4.0 miles from Kennedy to Agincourt, 2.6 miles from Agincourt to Milliken (pardon my imperial railroad measure). Add in potential new stops. Just not enough distance to make higher speeds material..... the track alignment could be altered, at considerable cost.... but that money is better spend elsewhere.

- Paul

 

[generalcanada]

Important to remember here when @crs1026 says '60'...he's meaning Mile per Hour, or 100km/ph.

Within an urbanized area, and with distances generally at or below 4km between stops, its asking alot to get to a faster speed only to slow down again almost immediately.

If you search @reaperexpress 's posts, I'm sure he's got the acceleration rate for the trains somewhere, but regardless.....it takes time to get the train up to 60mph. Its a big beast.

At 100km/ph, you could cover 4km in 2 minutes 24s.

You're obviously not going to be at that speed the whole time. So let's just say, for argument's sake that you could hit 'peak speed' for the middle 2km.

That's 1m 12s at 100km/ph

At 80mph/120km/ph that's 1 minute.

So its only a savings of 12 seconds.

My at-speed math is solid, but as I noted, I don't know the exact curves on acceleration/braking.

But whether its such that you could shave as little as 8 seconds or as much as 20s its not a terribly exciting number over that distance.

I grant, its cumulative.......but still we're talking 2 minutes 'ish across most of the line?

While current locos have a top speed of 100kph. dont the electric trains intend to go 140kph? i remember reading that in the 2022 onexpress announcement. that on top of the extra acceleration from electric locos

 

[Sauga89]

I think the gist of the issue @Bojaxs asked about is that today the maximum speed limit is 40 miles per hour, or about 64 km per hour, not counting stops. In good traffic, I imagine you could probably drive faster than that. But if I understand what is being said here, the grade separations planned will bring that up to 50 or 60 miles per hour, or 80 to 100 km per hour? I wouldn't be disappointed by that. It sounds like you'd only need more than that if you wanted express trains.

 

[Krypto98]

While current locos have a top speed of 100kph. dont the electric trains intend to go 140kph? i remember reading that in the 2022 onexpress announcement. that on top of the extra acceleration from electric locos

Current locomotives have a top speed of 93 mph or 149 km/hr

 

[Bojaxs]

I think the gist of the issue @Bojaxs asked about is that today the maximum speed limit is 40 miles per hour, or about 64 km per hour, not counting stops. In good traffic, I imagine you could probably drive faster than that. But if I understand what is being said here, the grade separations planned will bring that up to 50 or 60 miles per hour, or 80 to 100 km per hour? I wouldn't be disappointed by that. It sounds like you'd only need more than that if you wanted express trains.

Yeah, I wouldn't complain if the trains on the Stouffville line were hitting 80-100km/h. But when I rode it yesterday it certainly wasn't going anywhere near those speeds.

 

[bearcat]

Important to remember here when @crs1026 says '60'...he's meaning Mile per Hour, or 100km/ph.

Within an urbanized area, and with distances generally at or below 4km between stops, its asking alot to get to a faster speed only to slow down again almost immediately.

If you search @reaperexpress 's posts, I'm sure he's got the acceleration rate for the trains somewhere, but regardless.....it takes time to get the train up to 60mph. Its a big beast.

At 100km/ph, you could cover 4km in 2 minutes 24s.

You're obviously not going to be at that speed the whole time. So let's just say, for argument's sake that you could hit 'peak speed' for the middle 2km.

That's 1m 12s at 100km/ph

At 80mph/120km/ph that's 1 minute.

So its only a savings of 12 seconds.

My at-speed math is solid, but as I noted, I don't know the exact curves on acceleration/braking.

But whether its such that you could shave as little as 8 seconds or as much as 20s its not a terribly exciting number over that distance.

I grant, its cumulative.......but still we're talking 2 minutes 'ish across most of the line?

Thanks again for your thorough answer as usual.

I understand it is in miles per hour, and 60 mph is almost 100 km/h.

And I understand with the current planned service pattern and station spacing, it doesn't make a huge difference like you point out to go from 60 to 80 let's say.

I agree 60 mph as a top regular operating speed for the currently planned service is more than enough. I don't think 40 is.

However, I think there might be some value in providing for a higher operating speed in case there's future express service, or even for situations where a train is running behind, and in that setting a few seconds make a difference in terms of keeping on schedule. Or if there is ever service with shorter, lighter and more quickly accelerating EMU's, but perhaps I am overestimating how much of a difference that would make.

Ultimately it sounds like with current track geometry 60 is close to the limit, so the expense is not worth it to go higher.

I really do hope we get the 60 when the grade separations are complete.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Or if there is ever service with shorter, lighter and more quickly accelerating EMU's, but perhaps I am overestimating how much of a difference that would make.

Consider this approximation for some perspective:

1. Assume EMUs perform like a Toronto Rocket (accel 0.9m/s2, decel 1.35m/s2)
2. Assume straight track with no impediments to speed

The following shows travel times at approximate speeds (40mph, 60mph, 80mph), covering approximate station distances:
Kennedy - Agincourt = ~ 4km,
Agincourt - Miliken = ~ 6km,
Miliken - Unionville = ~ 4km
Kennedy - Unionville = ~14km (hypothetical express)

Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t
----------------------------------------
d:  4000m, v:  65km/h, t =  3:58
d:  4000m, v:  95km/h, t =  2:56
d:  4000m, v: 130km/h, t =  2:24
----------------------------------------
d:  6000m, v:  65km/h, t =  5:49
d:  6000m, v:  95km/h, t =  4:11
d:  6000m, v: 130km/h, t =  3:19
----------------------------------------
d: 14000m, v:  65km/h, t = 13:12
d: 14000m, v:  95km/h, t =  9:14
d: 14000m, v: 130km/h, t =  7:01

So 40mph max (~65kmh) between Unionville and Kennedy (with all stops) takes ~14 minutes, at 60mph (~95kmh) that's reduced to ~10 minutes.
Once you add in dwell time you're looking at more like 17 minutes down to 13, making the time saving relatively more trivial.
Remember, this is with subway levels of acceleration. GO train locos lug full trains somewhere shy of 0.4m/s2, less than half what I've used in this scenario.

Spoiler: Python code

Feel free to plug in new values and run this on your own

# train travel times based on distance, top speed, accel and decel:
dists = [4000, 6000, 14000]      # m
v_kmh = [65, 95, 130]            # km/h
v_ms  = [v / 3.6 for v in v_kmh] # m/s
accel = 0.9                      # m/s^2
decel = 1.35                     # m/s^2

print("Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t")

for d in dists:
  print("-" * 40)
  for v_max in v_ms:
    # ramp up and ramp down time (seconds)
    ramp_up_t = v_max / accel
    ramp_dn_t = v_max / decel

    # ramp up and ramp down distance (metres)
    ramp_up_d = v_max * ramp_up_t / 2
    ramp_dn_d = v_max * ramp_dn_t / 2  
   
    # distance at max speed (metres)
    v_max_d = d - ramp_up_d - ramp_dn_d
   
    # time at max speed (seconds)
    v_max_t = v_max_d / v_max
   
    # elapsed time
    t = ramp_up_t + v_max_t + ramp_dn_t

    # split minutes and seconds
    t_m, t_s = divmod(t, 60)

    print("d: {:5d}m, v: {:3d}km/h, t = {:2d}:{:02d} " \
                .format(d, int(v_max * 3.6), int(t_m), int(t_s)))

 

[Northern Light]

Consider this approximation for some perspective:

1. Assume EMUs perform like a Toronto Rocket (accel 0.9m/s2, decel 1.35m/s2)
2. Assume straight track with no impediments to speed

The following shows travel times at approximate speeds (40mph, 60mph, 80mph), covering approximate station distances:
Kennedy - Agincourt = ~ 4km,
Agincourt - Miliken = ~ 6km,
Miliken - Unionville = ~ 4km
Kennedy - Unionville = ~14km (hypothetical express)

Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t
----------------------------------------
d:  4000m, v:  65km/h, t =  3:58
d:  4000m, v:  95km/h, t =  2:56
d:  4000m, v: 130km/h, t =  2:24
----------------------------------------
d:  6000m, v:  65km/h, t =  5:49
d:  6000m, v:  95km/h, t =  4:11
d:  6000m, v: 130km/h, t =  3:19
----------------------------------------
d: 14000m, v:  65km/h, t = 13:12
d: 14000m, v:  95km/h, t =  9:14
d: 14000m, v: 130km/h, t =  7:01

So 40mph max (~65kmh) between Unionville and Kennedy (with all stops) takes ~14 minutes, at 60mph (~95kmh) that's reduced to ~10 minutes.
Once you add in dwell time you're looking at more like 17 minutes down to 13, making the time saving relatively more trivial.
Remember, this is with subway levels of acceleration. GO train locos lug full trains somewhere shy of 0.4m/s2, less than half what I've used in this scenario.

Spoiler: Python code

Feel free to plug in new values and run this on your own

# train travel times based on distance, top speed, accel and decel:
dists = [4000, 6000, 14000]      # m
v_kmh = [65, 95, 130]            # km/h
v_ms  = [v / 3.6 for v in v_kmh] # m/s
accel = 0.9                      # m/s^2
decel = 1.35                     # m/s^2

print("Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t")

for d in dists:
  print("-" * 40)
  for v_max in v_ms:
    # ramp up and ramp down time (seconds)
    ramp_up_t = v_max / accel
    ramp_dn_t = v_max / decel

    # ramp up and ramp down distance (metres)
    ramp_up_d = v_max * ramp_up_t / 2
    ramp_dn_d = v_max * ramp_dn_t / 2 
  
    # distance at max speed (metres)
    v_max_d = d - ramp_up_d - ramp_dn_d
  
    # time at max speed (seconds)
    v_max_t = v_max_d / v_max
  
    # elapsed time
    t = ramp_up_t + v_max_t + ramp_dn_t

    # split minutes and seconds
    t_m, t_s = divmod(t, 60)

    print("d: {:5d}m, v: {:3d}km/h, t = {:2d}:{:02d} " \
                .format(d, int(v_max * 3.6), int(t_m), int(t_s)))

Agree with the above, but would note that a Finch station is funded//approved between Milliken and Agincourt.

 

[bearcat]

Agree with the above, but would note that a Finch station is funded//approved between Milliken and Agincourt.

Is there an update on the funding for it? Didn't the city plan to defer indefinitely last year unless they get money from the province? You sound optimistic it's actually getting built.