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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

You say all this, yet you also seemed to have not mentioned what your preferred alternative will be.

Yes i did. The subway follows Yonge, period.

Personally, I wouldn't go past Steeles currently, until York Region demonstrates it is serious about funding a proper transit system. A subway supported by a network of every 30 to 60 minutes buses is not my idea a remotely intelligent plan or good use of money.

If going north of Steeles, I think it makes more sense to stop at Major Mack.

Markham Gateway is mostly abandoned Brownbelt that's begging to be redeveloped into something. Areas like Oneida already have condos that are open and built, ready to see walk on passengers - not to mention the numerous parking lots in the area all conveniently flanking the railway corridor begging for redevelopment.

The land next to Yonge makes sense for residential, further east is better as employment, when next to a main freight line.

Yonge Street doesn't have a direct connection to Highway 7, which makes interfacing with Highway 7 busses difficult. That's the benefit of the new Bus Terminal location - it is so much faster and more convenient for Highway 7 and viva busses to access,.....

Best to correct the mistake you note, and return highway......errr Avenue 7 to grade.

This would require a re-alignment, of course.

1738871034393.png


Remove the existing grade-separated 7 where its redundant and create a greenbelts of parkland, a multi-use path, and development at key nodes. Problem with buses solved.

I thought the question of train storage has long been settled.

Nope.

There may be interim measures, but they aren't sufficient.
 
I think whoever made this graphic didn't think it through, or simply forgot. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a last minute rush job that they through together yesterday. I personally haven't heard anything regarding delaying Bowmanville - quite the opposite in fact.
Yeah, this strikes me as a graphic that some staffer was trying to pump out as fast as possible and forgot to include some items.

I am glad to see this as part of the next crop of transit projects that we can expect to see in the pipeline. I doubt any of it will come to fruition any time soon (other posters have commented about Metrolinx having their hands full with all of the current RT/GO projects under construction, many of which are behind schedule), but getting the ball rolling on the planning/design will ensure that there are more things in the pipeline that can be built once the current group of projects start to finally wrap up. Hopefully the older studies for some of these corridors can be reused or built upon to save time.
 
I think whoever made this graphic didn't think it through, or simply forgot. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a last minute rush job that they through together yesterday. I personally haven't heard anything regarding delaying Bowmanville - quite the opposite in fact.
Maybe - if you are correct, I'm sure they'll issue a replacement shortly.
 
Yes i did. The subway follows Yonge, period.
To serve the SFHs that will be far more difficult and take a lot longer to redevelop?
Personally, I wouldn't go past Steeles currently, until York Region demonstrates it is serious about funding a proper transit system. A subway supported by a network of every 30 to 60 minutes buses is not my idea a remotely intelligent plan or good use of money.
The reason why this subway is being built in the first place is because as it stands, Viva Blue (regular + the short turn B) alone runs every 6 minutes (not to mention all of the other busses that follow Yonge south of Highway 7), and with increasing concentration of development along the corridor (plus my anecdotal experience of the busses being extremely full as is) it really won't be long before the headways are reduced even further. I don't think it can be overstated how much development is going around the Viva routes, and you can cry about them not getting a lot in terms of headways (and yes that is a problem), but with how much development and demand there will be, it really won't take much before the busses are hit by a motherload. Its already happening with Viva Purple A struggling to meet the York U demand following the opening of the new campus, and YRT's struggle to meet that demand. With the constant upzoning across all of Highway 7 and even Centre Street, the need for high frequency busses is frankly inevitable.
If going north of Steeles, I think it makes more sense to stop at Major Mack.
I'm not 100% against this, but at the same time the amount of demand there is between RHC and Finch is significantly higher than between RHC and Major Mack. That extension will be a future problem that I honestly think would make more sense as just a line that parallels the Bala Sub, rather than a Yonge Street El or Subway.
The land next to Yonge makes sense for residential, further east is better as employment, when next to a main freight line.
Highlighting its status as a freight line implies that you believe that this employment should be industrial (maybe not, but that's the main value of a freight line) - a weird thing to put next to dense subway oriented TOD. This is before I mention the fact that the 407 itself is a current and even future corridor for cross regional transit, and let's say there's a reason why the MTO values the area as a major regional transit hub, one where its absolutely worth to densify as much as possible.
Best to correct the mistake you note, and return highway......errr Avenue 7 to grade.

This would require a re-alignment, of course.

View attachment 630007

Remove the existing grade-separated 7 where its redundant and create a greenbelts of parkland, a multi-use path, and development at key nodes. Problem with buses solved.
That will be a lot more difficult and expensive than you probably realize. The reason why its grade separated in the first place is due to its proximity to the 407 interchange. That would basically require rebuilding that entire interchange and 407 alignment from scratch - an expense that I think will be impossible to justify - especially when the interchange design is far from broken like many others in this region. Its not like the planners from the 90s decided to grade separate this section of Highway 7 because they were feeling silly.
 
To serve the SFHs that will be far more difficult and take a lot longer to redevelop?

The SFHs can be expropriated and removed in the stroke of a pen.

Mx has done just that a plethora of other sites.

The reason why this subway is being built in the first place is because as it stands, Viva Blue (regular + the short turn B) alone runs every 6 minutes (not to mention all of the other busses that follow Yonge south of Highway 7).....

I bus every 6 minutes is normative on a dozen routes or more in Toronto, it is not justification for a subway, that begins when you bus is every 2M

Bus capacity (non-artic) is 51.

A subway replacing that is 1,400 (really more like 1,000, but I digress)

How do you justify 20x (or more) the capacity, assuming the subway ran only every 6M?

If the subway ran at off-peak frequency in line w/current Line 1 standards (every 4M) ....you're looking at 30x the capacity or more....

That will be a lot more difficult and expensive than you probably realize.

Have you not yet realized I understand these issues really........ I mean really well? Just saying.

The reason why its grade separated in the first place is due to its proximity to the 407 interchange.

Uh, I know that.

That would basically require rebuilding that entire interchange and 407 alignment from scratch - an expense that I think will be impossible to justify - especially when the interchange design is far from broken like many others in this region. Its not like the planners from the 90s decided to grade separate this section of Highway 7 because they were feeling silly.

No, that's why I actually posted what should have been done in the first place, which is to re-align 'Avenue 7' so that it is further from the 407 in this section.
 
The SFHs can be expropriated and removed in the stroke of a pen.

Mx has done just that a plethora of other sites.



I bus every 6 minutes is normative on a dozen routes or more in Toronto, it is not justification for a subway, that begins when you bus is every 2M

Bus capacity (non-artic) is 51.

A subway replacing that is 1,400 (really more like 1,000, but I digress)

How do you justify 20x (or more) the capacity, assuming the subway ran only every 6M?

If the subway ran at off-peak frequency in line w/current Line 1 standards (every 4M) ....you're looking at 30x the capacity or more....



Have you not yet realized I understand these issues really........ I mean really well? Just saying.



Uh, I know that.



No, that's why I actually posted what should have been done in the first place, which is to re-align 'Avenue 7' so that it is further from the 407 in this section.
Probably not the right place to ask this, but Highway 7 looks like it was cobbled together from various (well, 2) concessions. When Highway 7 was downloaded to York Region, why did it not revert to its former names like Highway 7 did in Brampton? In Brampton it's Queen Street and Bovaird Drive. So why isn't it back to 14th Ave/Centre St/Green Ln for the southern concession, and Langstaff for the one above it? I can see the concessions are a bit hacked to pieces though, so I'm guessing that's why?
 
Probably not the right place to ask this, but Highway 7 looks like it was cobbled together from various (well, 2) concessions. When Highway 7 was downloaded to York Region, why did it not revert to its former names like Highway 7 did in Brampton? In Brampton it's Queen Street and Bovaird Drive. So why isn't it back to 14th Ave/Centre St/Green Ln for the southern concession, and Langstaff for the one above it? I can see the concessions are a bit hacked to pieces though, so I'm guessing that's why?

Honestly, I don't know, I could probably find out......but I suspect others here have the requisite knowledge, so let's give space to the room before we assign me after-hours homework, LOL
 
The SFHs can be expropriated and removed in the stroke of a pen.

Mx has done just that a plethora of other sites.
Sure... or we could focus on the massive swaths of parking lots and abandoned yellow belt that will be a lot easier to redevelop.
I bus every 6 minutes is normative on a dozen routes or more in Toronto, it is not justification for a subway, that begins when you bus is every 2M

Bus capacity (non-artic) is 51.

A subway replacing that is 1,400 (really more like 1,000, but I digress)

How do you justify 20x (or more) the capacity, assuming the subway ran only every 6M?

If the subway ran at off-peak frequency in line w/current Line 1 standards (every 4M) ....you're looking at 30x the capacity or more....
First, I don't know the last time Viva Blue has run a non-artic bus, but I digress. Second, 6m is barely enough to handle current demands. Remember we're planning for the future here, and considering not just what's there right now, but the developments that have already been committed and are being made. That 6m will quite realistically go down very rapidly. They introduced Viva Blue 'B' last year for a reason, the amount of demand on the corridor south of Bernard is far more than what can be handled by evenly timed short turns. This is also not factoring the many bus routes that operate on Yonge Street south of RHC that aren't called Viva Blue (there are many). Third, if as a region we're planning for the 407 corridor to be a main circulator artery (which we are), a high capacity Finch <--> RHC connection becomes vital not just for the York Region commuters heading to Toronto, but also North York residents travelling to the northern reaches of the GTHA. That is a huge amount of demand that will need to be supplied in a necessarily transit oriented future.

Finally, and most importantly, I find your required target of reaching that target capacity of 1000-1400 to be concerning. If I were to somehow give you a list of facts that contributed to the section reaching anywhere near that capacity, this discussion wouldn't be about building a subway, but about building several different subways or something even higher capacity. The fact that the Yonge Line just south of Bloor-Yonge is reaching that capacity limit is like the fundamental reason why it is so crucial that we build projects like GO Expansion and the Ontario Line, the mere idea that a subway can only be justified if it reaches that capacity threshold is insane. By that logic we can probably justify the idea that no part of the Toronto Subway outside of the U is needed and shouldn't have been built. I ride Line 2 off peak all the time, and very rarely have I ever seen even every seat be taken. There is absolutely no reason that maxing out train capacity should be our target for capacity needs.
Have you not yet realized I understand these issues really........ I mean really well? Just saying.



Uh, I know that.



No, that's why I actually posted what should have been done in the first place, which is to re-align 'Avenue 7' so that it is further from the 407 in this section.
I have no idea how you plan to do that without straight up bulldozing an arterial through neighbourhoods, which even if we go down that route only raises the price stakes even higher. Is it justifiable to spend billions of dollars bulldozing an arterial through existing neighbourhoods, just so you can have a flat intersection, just so you can justify rezoning existing housing into high density housing, just to justify building the extension as a subway that doesn't deviate from Yonge. Meanwhile, we have empty land RIGHT THERE ready for the taking.
 
Sure... or we could focus on the massive swaths of parking lots and abandoned yellow belt that will be a lot easier to redevelop.

We need to close off this discussion. Its not going well, and its leaving a very negative impression of you, with me and many others.

Moving along.......any land can be redeveloped.........and intensified.......why not greefield north of New Market?

Because its more expensive to serve is the answer.

You want the intensification to occur accretively to where it already happened, and to create critical mass Dropping it into random spots that aren't logical except that they profit certain owners is not sound planniing.

First, I don't know the last time Viva Blue has run a non-artic bus

Fine, capacity of 77 every 6M instead of 1,000 to 1,400.

, but I digress. Second, 6m is barely enough to handle current demands. Remember we're planning for the future here, and considering not just what's there right now, but the developments that have already been committed and are being made. That 6m will quite realistically go down very rapidly. They introduced Viva Blue 'B' last year for a reason, the amount of demand on the corridor south of Bernard is far more than what can be handled by evenly timed short turns. This is also not factoring the many bus routes that operate on Yonge Street south of RHC that aren't called Viva Blue (there are many). Third, if as a region we're planning for the 407 corridor to be a main circulator artery (which we are), a high capacity Finch <--> RHC connection becomes vital not just for the York Region commuters heading to Toronto, but also North York residents travelling to the northern reaches of the GTHA. That is a huge amount of demand that will need to be supplied in a necessarily transit oriented future.

You act as if I'm suggesting there not be a subway ever. That's not what I'm suggesting.

I'm saying service on existing routes, using existing vehicles should get better before we move to a subway.

I'm also suggesting that YRT's supporting and feeding services are nothing short of pathetic.

The investment per capita is well below Mississauga, Brampton and Durham.

Finally, and most importantly, I find your required target of reaching that target capacity of 1000-1400 to be concerning. If I were to somehow give you a list of facts that contributed to the section reaching anywhere near that capacity, this discussion wouldn't be about building a subway, but about building several different subways or something even higher capacity. The fact that the Yonge Line just south of Bloor-Yonge is reaching that capacity limit is like the fundamental reason why it is so crucial that we build projects like GO Expansion and the Ontario Line, the mere idea that a subway can only be justified if it reaches that capacity threshold is insane. By that logic we can probably justify the idea that no part of the Toronto Subway outside of the U is needed and shouldn't have been built. I ride Line 2 off peak all the time, and very rarely have I ever seen even every seat be taken. There is absolutely no reason that maxing out train capacity should be our target for capacity needs.

This is not what I said at any point and this typifies the reason this discussion must end. You're misrepresenting my view and making bad faith arguments without supporting evidence for no reason.

I have never been disrespectful to you, but I mostly certainly feel disrespected by you.

My patience is at an end.
 
I have never been disrespectful to you, but I mostly certainly feel disrespected by you.

My patience is at an end.
You have done this to me several times, with no apologies
I think whoever made this graphic didn't think it through, or simply forgot. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a last minute rush job that they through together yesterday. I personally haven't heard anything regarding delaying Bowmanville - quite the opposite in fact.
It's crazy that it won't have electric service for decades after the decades from now that it opens
 
Here’s a map I made on the proposed Bolton Line:
View attachment 630027
I’ll make a map on the Midtown Line and proposed reroute of the Richmond Hill Line later.
I'm interested in seeing how this one is supposed to work. I'd assume that since the Midtown Line would be freed up, that means the CP part of the missing like continues through the 407 right of way all the way to Agincourt, but CP would still need the MacTier subdivision from a 407 ROW through Caledon going north. Anyone think it might be a rush hour only train if it does happen? Or maybe MX adds more track infrastructure to the line for some level of 2WAD?

Lots that we could speculate about until we hear more from the PCs and if anything happens at all. Hopefully as the campaign continues the next 3 weeks, we hear some more about these plans.
 

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