GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[reaperexpress]

Developments being proposed near Metrolinx-owned rail corridors listed on the Toronto AIC page have noise studies that show the current planned amount of train movements per day on each line. (I was not the one to notice this but I’ll happily pass it along):
View attachment 614963View attachment 614964View attachment 614965View attachment 614966View attachment 614967View attachment 614968View attachment 614969

I also made a diagram listing the daytime numbers (0700-2300) and how frequent departures would be if they were averaged out over the 16 hour period. For simplicities sake I have assumed every train is running revenue between these hours, that obviously will not be the case but it would be impossible for me to pick out which of them would be non-revenue:View attachment 614987
The AIC sources are also listed here but I believe every development proposal within a few hundred metres of a rail corridor would have these listed in their noise studies.

Great diagrams as always, but it's important to remember that this is a noise study not a service plan. So it is not telling you Metrolinx's best guess of service, it's providing their best case scenario, because that's the worst case scenario for noise. If they end up running less service than advertised the adjacent residents won't complain but if they run more service people they might. Best to share extremely optimistic service estimates to avoid a nuisance for Metrolinx in the future.

 

[ARG1]

This is really damning with regard to level of service on the Milton Line, considering the ridership it achieves despite the paltry level of service.

And I have to stay the Milton trains are absolutely packed these past few weeks (I normally take the 8 am train from Cooksville and the 5:55 pm from Union--been waiting forever for them to add a train in between 5:25 and 5:55, i.e. at 5:40 pm).

The numbers shown here are the same as what Milton has right now. I think the reason for this is because this diagram only accounts for the impact provided by the GO Expansion plan specifically. Whatever the government is cooking up in regards to Milton (specifically that 6B electrification project) is almost certainly considered a separate project from GO Expansion, and thus won't be reflected in these documents.

 

[sixrings]

The numbers shown here are the same as what Milton has right now. I think the reason for this is because this diagram only accounts for the impact provided by the GO Expansion plan specifically. Whatever the government is cooking up in regards to Milton (specifically that 6B electrification project) is almost certainly considered a separate project from GO Expansion, and thus won't be reflected in these documents.

You’re assuming the government is doing anything about Milton. Every year we’re told just wait. It’s all magically happening behind closed doors. But we can’t say anything about it yet. We will be saying the same thing 50 years from now.

 

[nfitz]

It looks like it includes Richmond Hill increases though - full day? I thought Richmond Hill wasn't part of Go Expansion and OnCorridor.

 

[ARG1]

It looks like it includes Richmond Hill increases though - full day? I thought Richmond Hill wasn't part of Go Expansion and OnCorridor.

Its not part of OnCorr (as in they're not electrifying it), but there's nothing about not introducing minor service improvements. Its just that the line isn't getting the full treatment of frequent and electrified service. For what its worth, a train every 2 hours is in line with some of the things I've seen/heard over the years.

 

[sixrings]

It looks like it includes Richmond Hill increases though - full day? I thought Richmond Hill wasn't part of Go Expansion and OnCorridor.

Yes every time someone mentions that Milton needs better service I swear others say what about Richmond hill. Well it’s not even comparable. I’d gladly take all day 30 min service then rush hour only 15 min service.

 

[nfitz]

Its not part of OnCorr (as in they're not electrifying it), but there's nothing about not introducing minor service improvements. Its just that the line isn't getting the full treatment of frequent and electrified service. For what its worth, a train every 2 hours is in line with some of the things I've seen/heard over the years.

I'd say an increase from 10 trains (total) per day to 81 trains a day is a lot more than a minor service improvement! That's at least every 30-minutes all-day both ways (how that's possible without at least some passing tracks I don't know). Perhaps I'm missing something.

Yes every time someone mentions that Milton needs better service I swear others say what about Richmond hill. Well it’s not even comparable. I’d gladly take all day 30 min service then rush hour only 15 min service.

I'm certainly not saying Richmond Hill needs a significant improvement (I really don't see the demand is there south of Richmond Hill GO - especially once the Line 1 extension opens). I'm just surprised at how big the number is! I'm not sure what they are thinking here ... I wonder if using the DMUs might be an option for this line.

Obviously Milton needs significant approval - which is why both Ontario and the Feds are talking about it. But Richmond Hill is, in comparison, low-hanging fruit. Perhaps GO staff think it might help some of them keep their jobs, after ONxpress supplants some of their functions.

 

[asher__jo]

Not sure this would be a good idea. A regional transit agency is probably necessary. It could just be run more transparently and accountably.

I don’t favour this approach but do think it’s a political sell that it would be an improvement over Metrolinx secrecy and hollow consultation.

 

[smallspy]

I'd say an increase from 10 trains (total) per day to 81 trains a day is a lot more than a minor service improvement! That's at least every 30-minutes all-day both ways (how that's possible without at least some passing tracks I don't know). Perhaps I'm missing something.

They can run hourly service as the line stands now, but half-hourly headways would require at least a couple of passing tracks where some don't currently exist.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

It's worth going back to the GO Expansion Business Case before we start assuming increases (which, as noted, have been drawn from noise and other studies whose baselines are by design more conservative than the actual ML plan)

Note the ridership changes that ML is projecting. This does not seem to argue for any all- day enhancement of the Richmond Hill line

Also note the commentary.

The point being..... we can all argue our individual opinions, but if this is ML's plan, this is all they are going to build. Maybe in a decade or two....

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

It's worth going back to the GO Expansion Business Case before we start assuming increases (which, as noted, have been drawn from noise and other studies whose baselines are by design more conservative than the actual ML plan)

Note the ridership changes that ML is projecting. This does not seem to argue for any all- day enhancement of the Richmond Hill line

View attachment 615334

Also note the commentary.

View attachment 615333

The point being..... we can all argue our individual opinions, but if this is ML's plan, this is all they are going to build. Maybe in a decade or two....

- Paul

Are you suggesting a decade or two to fix the Milton line. Yup that makes sense. And let’s add another decade because of cost increases and playing political football.

 

[crs1026]

Are you suggesting a decade or two to fix the Milton line. Yup that makes sense. And let’s add another decade because of cost increases and playing political football.

*sigh*. This is getting a little tiring. Despite many opinions to the contrary, it's abundantly clear that Milton was left out of the GO Expansion plan. For the reasons outlined in the Business Case document. ML may have been right, they may have been wrong, but it is what it is.

Federal and provincial governments have made soothing noises about correcting that course, but nothing concrete has been said or agreed to. And concrete is definitely required.

So, yeah, whether anyone likes it or not, a few things will have to happen before Milton gets attention
- conclusive negotiation with CPKC (note how quickly and easily that happened with Bowmanville, and with CN on the Halton)
- completion or addition to whatever may already be in the files in terms of a TPAP (hint: consultations and local politics)
- new funding actually inserted in budgets (hint: there is no room for new funding either federally or provincially until a bunch of the existing projects have been paid for)
- design, procurement, and construction (hint: Ontario's construction sector is pretty much maxed out already)

So yes, whether anyone thinks this is good news or an outrageous travesty, it will be at least 15 years to see 2WAD to Milton. complaining and/or grinding axes will not speed it up.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

*sigh*. This is getting a little tiring. Despite many opinions to the contrary, it's abundantly clear that Milton was left out of the GO Expansion plan. For the reasons outlined in the Business Case document. ML may have been right, they may have been wrong, but it is what it is.

Federal and provincial governments have made soothing noises about correcting that course, but nothing concrete has been said or agreed to. And concrete is definitely required.

So, yeah, whether anyone likes it or not, a few things will have to happen before Milton gets attention
- conclusive negotiation with CPKC (note how quickly and easily that happened with Bowmanville, and with CN on the Halton)
- completion or addition to whatever may already be in the files in terms of a TPAP (hint: consultations and local politics)
- new funding actually inserted in budgets (hint: there is no room for new funding either federally or provincially until a bunch of the existing projects have been paid for)
- design, procurement, and construction (hint: Ontario's construction sector is pretty much maxed out already)

So yes, whether anyone thinks this is good news or an outrageous travesty, it will be at least 15 years to see 2WAD to Milton. complaining and/or grinding axes will not speed it up.

- Paul

Hold on. It’s tiring hearing about it. That’s a rough life. Try living with it.

 

[crs1026]

Try living with it.

I do, a couple times a week, on the 401, both ways. Will that make it happen faster?

- Paul

PS: The other days I ride the 501 streetcar. To meet friends who are coming in from the east end, where there used to be an SRT. Mississauga is not that "special".

 

[sixrings]

I do, a couple times a week, on the 401, both ways. Will that make it happen faster?

- Paul

PS: The other days I ride the 501 streetcar. To meet friends who are coming in from the east end, where there used to be an SRT. Mississauga is not that "special".

Yes but that SRT is being replaced with a subway. It’s hard for me to feel bad for a group of people who have drills already in the ground. I’m speaking as a former resident of Scarborough. Also the same people who were arguing that all they needed was the extension once it was funded went full force into why they deserve a full blown Sheppard extension.

These business cases are all a joke. There was no business case to why the university line should be underground. There was a business case for why the srt should be converted to lrt. A new mayor and suddenly the business case radically changes. This is all politics. So I do think complaining makes a difference. That’s how these decisions are made. Appealing to a base. I despise trump but that’s what got him elected. Listening to a base. That’s why trudeaus about to be gone. Not listening to a base. This is why ford became mayor promises to a base. And I’ve sent a letter to the new mayor and councillor expressing my frustration. This is all residents can do. Write letters and complain. Not just in one place but everywhere. If I could I’d just build the dang thing myself. But I can’t. So here we are. As you said. It is what it is.