GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Northern Light]

Who cares if we close the door? The case for rail to Cambridge will never be there. Not least on this corridor. The population and travel patterns will never be the right mix to make this a wise investment. Canada's population will start shrinking before then. In that case, if the land can be put to better use if not needed for rail, it should be used that way.

Cambridge to Guelph GO checks all the boxes of a vanity project. Cambridge wants higher order transit just so they can brag about it. They are not interested in actually creating the best transport links. If they actually push to get this and stage 2 ION funded, the province and Metrolinx will laugh in their face. It will be years wasted.

We need busses, and lots of them. Projects like this distract and deflect from doing the things that will actually improve connectivity and peoples' lives.

1) You're being very aggressive in your position beyond simply advocating for it and citing evidence. (may I add, there's been precious little to work with on this proposal and on some others nearby) Being dismissive of anyone or their position, in all but the most extreme cases is unhelpful and will leave you short of fellow travelers sharing your view.

2) The right-of-way should be saved even if it were not rail-banked, because it can be a walking/biking trail, if nothing else, there is a nice chunk of nature along it.
I'm not necessarily sold on this project, but neither would I be inclined to flush the corridor down the toilet. It has at least some value, lets maintain that value either way, and give more consideration to the transit file in due course.

3) How about we fetch the cordon count data (not sure if 2023 is out yet) and have a look at the existing demand patterns? At a high level Cambridge to each of K-W, Guelph and Toronto, then if we can drill down to the level of Preston/Galt/Hespler than would be ideal. Then we can more intelligently discuss how to best facilitate certain movements. Rail should not be dismissed out of hand, even if it may not the be the right choice here and now; and/or maybe with consideration to different rollingstock and even provider. (Should Grand River operate such a service as opposed to GO?) Rail will not be successful without a strong bus system; but rail is unique in being far more attractive to far more choice riders vs buses, and that must be given some weight.

 

[Bojaxs]

I can get behind the concept of a Guelph-Kitchener-Cambridge-Brantford-(Hamilton?) transit web, and this would fit within that. There may be merit in looking at how to get that new network away from being road dependent. I see it however as separate from GO Transit and possibly a lighter-rail service similar to Ottawa's Trillium Line, using less than heavy rail equipment which, like Ottawa and KW LRT, may imply temporally separated from any freight operation. It may be best operated as some sort of cooperative inter-Regional entity and not driven from the Provincial level.

If you make such a line light rail instead of heavy rail, then all the street car fanatics are going to want to put a stop at every intersection. Plus the trains will have to stop at red lights.

Heavy rail ensures a faster trip. Make it part of the GO network.

 

[micheal_can]

If you make such a line light rail instead of heavy rail, then all the street car fanatics are going to want to put a stop at every intersection. Plus the trains will have to stop at red lights.

Heavy rail ensures a faster trip. Make it part of the GO network.

The problem is, we need so much more transit infrastructure than we could ever afford that when something is suggested, everyone has their own ideas to make it fit their wants more. If the Tricities had good lower order rail transit, a commuter line would be sufficient to most people.

 

[Northern Light]

If you make such a line light rail instead of heavy rail, then all the street car fanatics are going to want to put a stop at every intersection. Plus the trains will have to stop at red lights.

Heavy rail ensures a faster trip. Make it part of the GO network.

There is nothing intrinsic about that.

There is a pattern of over-reach on the subject of this line/spur/proposal.

Both by those in favour and those opposed.

Its just not helpful at all. How many people who were interested in what you were saying just tuned out because you called them streetcar fanatics?

To the extent this proposal has a business case, it may well be the shortness of travel to Guelph is key, irrespective of mode or rollingstock; or it may be that there are other sources of demand that would support this service and require some intermediary stops.

How about we back up, treat others w/respect, get the actual evidence, then intelligently weigh the options.

 

[Bojaxs]

How many people who were interested in what you were saying just tuned out because you called them streetcar fanatics?

Cuts both ways. In another thread someone called me out for living in Oakville claiming I must be car-centric.

How about we back up, treat others w/respect, get the actual evidence, then intelligently weigh the options.

This forum breeds arrogance. Everyone here acts like they have all the answers. I've come to anticipate it every time I log in.

I'm always open to having my mind changed.

The problem is, we need so much more transit infrastructure than we could ever afford that when something is suggested, everyone has their own ideas to make it fit their wants more. If the Tricities had good lower order rail transit, a commuter line would be sufficient to most people.

Just so I'm clear. I'm talking about a line that goes from Kitchener to Hamilton. If we're just talking about the tri-cities, then yes a light rail makes more sense. Just extend the Milton line to Cambridge and have the "slow" ION travel between Kitchener GO and Cambridge GO.

 

[micheal_can]

Just so I'm clear. I'm talking about a a line that goes from Kitchener to Hamilton. If we're jsut talking about the tricities, then yes a light rail makes more sense. Just extend the Milton line to Cambridge and have the "slow" ION travel between Kitchener GO and Cambridge GO.

I thought we were talking of the line between Cambridge and Guelph?

 

[ZEBuilder]

Who cares if we close the door? The case for rail to Cambridge will never be there. Not least on this corridor. The population and travel patterns will never be the right mix to make this a wise investment. Canada's population will start shrinking before then. In that case, if the land can be put to better use if not needed for rail, it should be used that way.

Cambridge to Guelph GO checks all the boxes of a vanity project. Cambridge wants higher order transit just so they can brag about it. They are not interested in actually creating the best transport links. If they actually push to get this and stage 2 ION funded, the province and Metrolinx will laugh in their face. It will be years wasted.

We need busses, and lots of them. Projects like this distract and deflect from doing the things that will actually improve connectivity and peoples' lives.

You're mixing up Cambridge city council and the Regional Council, this project is not a Cambridge project it is a Regional project, you'd be hard pressed to find a Cambridge councillor who thinks the city should get higher order transit, they're all a bunch of NIMBYs.

Secondly there is definitely a substantial amount of people who use 24 to commute between Guelph and Cambridge, sure 500 million is a lot but Cambridge isn't going to get connected to GO via the Milton Line anytime soon so why not connect to a line that already has substantial demand? One can argue that stage 2 of the ION shouldn't get built which certainly has its merits.

What is your justification for saying Cambridge doesn't deserve higher order transit? Cambridge is a city of 140k which is just a couple thousand people smaller than Barrie so if Barrie can justify being connected to GO why does Cambridge not deserve it? St Catherine's and Niagara Falls are connected via Lakeshore West and both are smaller than Cambridge so again why is it not justifiable for Cambridge to have some connection to the GO network?

 

[Bojaxs]

I thought we were talking of the line between Cambridge and Guelph?

Read the post by crs1026, that I was responding to.

 

[nfitz]

Just so I'm clear. I'm talking about a line that goes from Kitchener to Hamilton.

What's the demand? I used to do that on the bus from time to time, and there were only a few buses a day, and they were more empty than full.

I don't see that it would ever be served by rail, rather than bus. I suspect bus might be cheaper too.

I'm curious what the demand is for Cambridge-Guelph as well. I just don't see thousands of people doing that commute by car currently.

 

[Northern Light]

Cuts both ways. In another thread someone called me out for living in Oakville claiming I must be car-centric.

I call out people equally on both sides for such. I won't claim to be angelic, that would certainly be a fib, but I do work hard to keep my language polite and civil and I think I achieve that most of the time (not all); I expect no less from every other poster.

This forum breeds arrogance. Everyone here acts like they have all the answers. I've come to anticipate it every time I log in.

I think this is completely and utterly unfair. Yes, there are some posters like that, but I think relatively few. A few of us are very knowledgeable in one or more areas and not shy about expressing the facts in such a fashion, though I would hope, mostly in a very polite way.

But there are a really large number of posters who are consistently moderate, balanced, polite and fair.

That a few completely run off the rails is not ok; but it doesn't poison the entire forum.

I would add; if you post throwing fire, you're likely to get the same back and then you've skewed your own perception; as shocker, other people don't like being name called, pigeon-holed or shamed either.

 

[Bojaxs]

What's the demand? I used to do that on the bus from time to time, and there were only a few buses a day, and they were more empty than full.

I don't see that it would ever be served by rail, rather than bus. I suspect bus might be cheaper too.

I'm curious what the demand is for Cambridge-Guelph as well. I just don't see thousands of people doing that commute by car currently.

You're right. I'm not saying there is a demand. I was just making the case that *if* we were to do some kind of rail transit between Kitchener and Hamilton, heavy rail would make more sense than light rail....IMO.
Such a line would probably be used by students more than workers.

 

[crs1026]

Heavy rail ensures a faster trip. Make it part of the GO network.

Let's see what the specs in the business case say.

The G&G was a slow speed branch line. Upgrading it all the way to heavy GO at speed will be expensive. The exit from Guelph and the entry through Preston are both slower speed propositions that are unlikely to ever see higher speed..

Any flavour of equipment that can run at 80 km/h would be suitable.

- Paul

 

[T3G]

This forum breeds arrogance. Everyone here acts like they have all the answers. I've come to anticipate it every time I log in.

Sorry, is this a problem you are drawing attention to and trying to change, or a problem you are trying to add to and make worse?

Because the statement "then all the street car fanatics are going to want to put a stop at every intersection" very heavily suggests the latter.

For my part, since you started posting on here in recent months about LRTs, I have always tried to meet your arguments and address your concerns in a good faith manner. If you can dismiss all of that as me being a street car fanatic who wants stops at every intersection, that is your affair, but you're attacking an imaginary strawman.

 

[sixrings]

Cuts both ways. In another thread someone called me out for living in Oakville claiming I must be car-centric.


This forum breeds arrogance. Everyone here acts like they have all the answers. I've come to anticipate it every time I log in.

I'm always open to having my mind changed.


Just so I'm clear. I'm talking about a line that goes from Kitchener to Hamilton. If we're just talking about the tri-cities, then yes a light rail makes more sense. Just extend the Milton line to Cambridge and have the "slow" ION travel between Kitchener GO and Cambridge GO.

I believe I called you car centric after you argued that a VIA station made more sense in 211k person Oakville vs 828k person Mississauga (port credit which has a LRT station) because in Oakville there was a large parking lot and better highway access.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

If you make such a line light rail instead of heavy rail, then all the street car fanatics are going to want to put a stop at every intersection. Plus the trains will have to stop at red lights.

Heavy rail ensures a faster trip. Make it part of the GO network.

For my part this may not be a wholly terrible thing. My suggestion is really that this corridor is almost uniquely suitable to Tram-Train operation assuming Hespeler Road light rail is built... No, that Galt link won't be fast, but it will have far better connectivity than rebuilding Fergus south of Eagle Street, and imo significantly reduces the pain of the Guelph transfer by eliminating an awful lot of transfers on the Cambridge side.

As far as total station count... well, something in Hespeler would be nice at some point, and I could eventually see a West Guelph station somewhere. With light equipment this isn't really all that excessive. Though I wouldn't want MORE than those. Speed is necessary here, but the corridor does have more in common with Regional work that the main GO network.