GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[anb]

And can I ask why still no weekend/holiday train service on the Kitchener line at least as far as Mount Pleasant? With maybe a few trains extended to Kitchener? It would seem that should be theoretically possible now..

Union-Bramalea is way more than possible right now and its still at least something if they ran weekend service only up to and from there (the tracks between are literally 98% owned by GO). A couple months ago they leaked a schedule by accident that included weekday 30 min service all day to and from Bramalea, but I think its safe to say it might be an actual thing at least in September. The service could easily translate further into the weekend and I hope its at least hourly to Mount Pleasant to start.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Union-Bramalea is way more than possible right now and its still at least something if they ran weekend service only up to and from there (the tracks between are literally 98% owned by GO). A couple months ago they leaked a schedule by accident that included weekday 30 min service all day to and from Bramalea, but I think its safe to say it might be an actual thing at least in September. The service could easily translate further into the weekend and I hope its at least hourly to Mount Pleasant to start.

I love when GO accidentally leaks things in schedules. A little while back Mount Dennis showed up on schedules. Makes me wonder if the GO station might open before the Crosstown.

Metrolinx should really execute on 30 min all-day weekday and weekend service from Union to Bramalea. The trains would be well-used.

 

[superelevation]

30m to Bramalea should especially be doable given the low UP frequencies rn, but given the layout of the tracks on GTS right now are there actually passing loops for trains to operate every 30? You can't quite make it to Bramalea in time otherwise, and clearly the 4th platform hasn't started at Bloor and isn't done at Weston

 

[reaperexpress]

I mean in terms of track improvements. They should reconsider full double-tracking but the upgrades should be enough to get to 90 minutes. Weekend service needs to happen to Mount Pleasant now though.

The planned track configuration can support 2 trains per hour between Kitchener and Georgetown. There is no need for full double track in the current planning horizon, but that's something which can definitely be done at a later stage.

Thanks for the update on Barrie. I wish they would move the south Newmarket station, it feels like they won't do the second platform at Newmarket GO. Barrie south needs a second platform no?

Newmarket eventually needs a second platform because the plan is for every 15 minutes to Bradford (i.e. double-track to Bradford).
But in the meantime my guess is that their next step will be sidings to support 30-minute service, similiar to what they're building right now between Kitchener and Georgetown. The current peak service is every 30 minutes to Barrie so those sidings would be required before there can be any counter-peak service. In addition to the siding between Bradford and Innisfil (for hourly midday/evening service), half-hourly service would also require second platforms/tracks at Barrie South and East Gwillimbury.

30m to Bramalea should especially be doable given the low UP frequencies rn, but given the layout of the tracks on GTS right now are there actually passing loops for trains to operate every 30? You can't quite make it to Bramalea in time otherwise, and clearly the 4th platform hasn't started at Bloor and isn't done at Weston

30-minute service to Bramalea doesn't even require the existing third track, let alone the fourth track under construction. The average speed of GO's local service is similar enough to UPX that they can slot between the UPX trains on the two western tracks - even while UPX is operating every 15 minutes. The UP Express timetable already leaves gaps at Wice (Pearson Junction) to allow an eastbound train to reach the south track without conflicting with UP in either direction.

It makes sense that the current hourly off-peak GO service uses the 3rd track instead of the 2 UP tracks. If the track exists, we might as well use it to reduce the chance of interference between the services, and be able to serve Etobicoke North station. But it isn't strictly necessary. One compromise option could be to run the hourly Mount Pleasant trains on the 3rd track as per the current pattern (since they have a higher chance of delay), while the hourly Bramalea trains share the UP tracks.

But to actually answer your question: the new 4th platform at Weston will enable half-hourly single-tracked operation on the 3rd and intermittent 4th tracks. Trains would meet at Malton, Weston and Union.

I don't get why the 8:34 from Union to Mount Pleasant is cut - and replaced by a single "31X" bus that makes all stops from Malton to Mount Pleasant. That just seems weird, unless there are still not enough train crews to make that work when extending other trains to Kitchener, or if the capacity is given up for UP Express.

The 8:34 from Union used to arrive in Mount Pleasant at 9:23, then turn around and operate the 9:40 eastbound from Mount Pleasant to Union.

In the current schedule, the 9:40 eastbound from Mount Pleasant now starts in Kitchener at 8:45, so it's operated by a different trainset which is stored in Kitchener, making the 8:34 westbound unnecessary.

But given that the 9:34 westbound now continues all the way to Kitchener rather than turning back to operate the 10:40 eastbound from Mount Pleasant, that raises the question of where that 10:40 eastbound train now comes from. If it deadheads from Union, then surely it would be better to just use that train on its old schedule to Mount Pleasant, and shift the Kitchener-bound train a bit earlier. The Kitchener train can't depart along the old 8:34 schedule because it would get to Georgetown at 9:34 which is too soon after the eastbound train which departs Georgetown at 9:30. But it looks like there's room for it to depart Union around 8:55 or 9:10, operating express to Malton on the centre track, then all stops to Kitchener.

 

[trainfanjacob8]

Has anyone been following the on-time performance of the GO trains to London as of late? VIA 84 has been delayed frequently over the past few weeks between London and Kitchener, and I've noticed that CN has added additional 10 mph slow orders between London and Kitchener. I also noticed on the VIA tracker that there's a new, and fairly long, 10 mph slow order just west of Kitchener.

 

[ssiguy2]

(We seem to have wandered into discussing how VIA and GO might share London service (via Brantford and via Kitchener) in other threads, Pretty hard to figure out which thread is most appropriate. So I'm dropping this here.)

Again, just a straw man, but the point being to demonstrate that a combined service can be operated as win-win, and to make the point that VIA should not be thought of as a Cinderella who isnt allowed to come to the party.

- Paul

View attachment 399688

VIA's Cinderella was invited to the party but she decided not to come.

The GO/VIA discussion is natural as GO continues to spread further out due to the absence of VIA. If VIA provided an affordable, fast, frequent, and reliable service to SWO then GO wouldn't be expanded into it. VIA has essentially abdicated the London/KW/Union route to GO and I can see the London/Woodstock/Union route being next. The London/Union route is, by passenger mile, the most financially sustainable one in the entire country yet has been allowed to rot and hence you can't blame people in London & SWO to demand better.

This really does exemplify how politics trumps transportation policy at VIA. When 14 of Ontario's federal cabinet ministers are from the GTAH and none from SWO, you know that SWO is going to be ignored. GO is provincial and the Tories need those key SWO MPPs and hence it's expansion. People in London, Windsor, and all of SWO would be far better off with an enhanced GO system than VIA.

 

[reaperexpress]

Has anyone been following the on-time performance of the GO trains to London as of late? VIA 84 has been delayed frequently over the past few weeks between London and Kitchener, and I've noticed that CN has added additional 10 mph slow orders between London and Kitchener. I also noticed on the VIA tracker that there's a new, and fairly long, 10 mph slow order just west of Kitchener.

It's not looking good today, in any case:

I had also noticed the 10 mph operation west of Kitchener station. I think your hypothesis is correct: new slow orders west of London have decimated the on-time performance of the London GO train and VIA 84 (Sarnia-Toronto).
Via 87 (Toronto-Sarnia) was hopeless regardless, but at the very least they should shift its departure time from Kitchener about 8 minutes earlier to account for the Metrolinx track upgrades between Georgetown and Kitchener, and give a bit more time to tiptoe from Kitchener to London.

Also, it is occuring to me that the London train departs for a more practical time for me (11:33 Central European Time) than the for the people in London Ontario.

I'm wondering if we could make a program to automatically estimate the current track speed profile summarize using the GO and VIA GPS traces. If you plotted speed over distance for all trains in a month, then traced the maximum speed for any train for each given segment of track, you would have a "maximum speed profile" for the line which could be compared from one month to the next to identify new or lifted slow zones.

I personally am not tech savvy enough to do it, but it seems like it would be quite doable for someone who has worked with GTFS data before.

 

[Krypto98]

It's not looking good today, in any case:
View attachment 400039

I had also noticed the 10 mph operation west of Kitchener station. I think your hypothesis is correct: new slow orders west of London have decimated the on-time performance of the London GO train and VIA 84 (Sarnia-Toronto).
Via 87 (Toronto-Sarnia) was hopeless regardless, but at the very least they should shift its departure time from Kitchener about 8 minutes earlier to account for the Metrolinx track upgrades between Georgetown and Kitchener, and give a bit more time to tiptoe from Kitchener to London.

Also, it is occuring to me that the London train departs for a more practical time for me (11:33 Central European Time) than the for the people in London Ontario.

I'm wondering if we could make a program to automatically estimate the current track speed profile summarize using the GO and VIA GPS traces. If you plotted speed over distance for all trains in a month, then traced the maximum speed for any train for each given segment of track, you would have a "maximum speed profile" for the line which could be compared from one month to the next to identify new or lifted slow zones.

I personally am not tech savvy enough to do it, but it seems like it would be quite doable for someone who has worked with GTFS data before.

Today trip 3710 got stopped by cp freight at buck diamond. The westbound trip was consistently arriving 5 minutes early to Stratford until they added the 10 mph speed restriction...

 

[innsertnamehere]

PCs promising to spend $160 million to upgrade London GO service:

Only Doug Ford and the Ontario PCs will Bring Thousands of Jobs to London

Relocating WSIB head office and faster GO train service will bring good jobs and boost local economy LONDON, May 12, 2022 – A re-elected PC government will bring more jobs to Southwestern Ontario by moving the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board (WSIB) head office to London and investing an...

ontariopc.ca

 

[robmausser]

PCs promising to spend $160 million to upgrade London GO service:

Only Doug Ford and the Ontario PCs will Bring Thousands of Jobs to London

Relocating WSIB head office and faster GO train service will bring good jobs and boost local economy LONDON, May 12, 2022 – A re-elected PC government will bring more jobs to Southwestern Ontario by moving the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board (WSIB) head office to London and investing an...

ontariopc.ca

I probably won't vote PC but I do like some of the things they are proposing, AND I like some of the things the Liberals are proposing. Can I vote for both? lol.

 

[urbancog]

I probably won't vote PC but I do like some of the things they are proposing, AND I like some of the things the Liberals are proposing. Can I vote for both? lol.

I'd remind folks that one of the first things Ford did, when he came to power, was cancel the rail bypass of Brampton and Georgetown and the proposed high-speed-rail service between London & Toronto. A fast TO-Airport-Guelph-Kitchener-London would have brought London into the Tech corridor, one slow GO Train each way per day does nothing for jobs in London & the SW.

 

[Northern Light]

PCs promising to spend $160 million to upgrade London GO service:

Only Doug Ford and the Ontario PCs will Bring Thousands of Jobs to London

Relocating WSIB head office and faster GO train service will bring good jobs and boost local economy LONDON, May 12, 2022 – A re-elected PC government will bring more jobs to Southwestern Ontario by moving the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board (WSIB) head office to London and investing an...

ontariopc.ca

That's probably an adequate capital investment, I would defer to those more expert than I on the subject...........but it doesn't sound like it includes the purchase price from CN; and if it does, then there would be a
question as to how much $$ remains for necessary works.

 

[Krypto98]

That's probably an adequate capital investment, I would defer to those more expert than I on the subject...........but it doesn't sound like it includes the purchase price from CN; and if it does, then there would be a
question as to how much $$ remains for necessary works.

How much did they spend on the Silver-kitchener section?

 

[ericmacm]

That's probably an adequate capital investment, I would defer to those more expert than I on the subject...........but it doesn't sound like it includes the purchase price from CN; and if it does, then there would be a
question as to how much $$ remains for necessary works.

I doubt they are purchasing the corridor at this time. The price for the 53-km section of the CN Guelph Subdivision when purchased in 2014 was $76M. My guess is that the $160M is going to mostly go to track improvements in the slowest, most decrepit sections of track so they can speed the service up, making it more viable for people to use. I could also maybe see them trying to purchase smaller sections of the track at the ends of the corridor, but not the entire corridor just yet.

 

[Northern Light]

I doubt they are purchasing the corridor at this time. The price for the 53-km section of the CN Guelph Subdivision when purchased in 2014 was $76M. My guess is that the $160M is going to mostly go to track improvements in the slowest, most decrepit sections of track so they can speed the service up, making it more viable for people to use. I could also maybe see them trying to purchase smaller sections of the track at the ends of the corridor, but not the entire corridor just yet.

I'm not clear on why one would spend money to upgrade someone else's corridor, and potentially increase its ultimate sale price, if one is also in the market to ultimately buy it.

Cheaper to buy it in the devalued state.