GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[anb]

Careful what you wish for, next thing you know the 16 will be stopping at McMaster, Burlington Park & Ride and Oakville Park & Ride along the way.

It wouldn't be unprecedented. Route 30 used to run non-stop from Bramalea to Kitchener, providing faster Toronto-Kitchener trips than direct trains. GO rectified this imbalance by making the 30 do a detour to an office park in Meadowdale.

The 40 used to act as an express service between Hamilton and Square One, while route 47 provided local service along the same route. But now the 40 also makes two intermediate stops at Park & Ride lots. Benefiting a few potential riders at those small parking lots in the middle of nowhere (who were already served by the 47) at the expense of the riders between the downtowns of two large cities.

And don't get me started on the continued lack of express service on route 12 Burlington-Niagara, route 25 Waterloo-Missauga, route 29 Guelph-Mississauga, or route 88 Oshawa-Peterborough.

At least the 30 and 40 isn’t the most out of the way route with its stops. Even though i think the former serving Meadowvale Business Park was sort of random but hey more connections to KW i guess, but it does run non stop to Kitchener after that so it varies between traffic time. 40 is still a fast route (maybe not from the west to the 407 and RHC as much since connecting to 45 at Square One gets you there directly 2x faster, but for being an Airport regional express bus, it works perfectly).

We used to have all day express buses on the 12 (12B) and 25 (25C), but ML cancelled them because of the pandemic and considering what they’re doing right now with their service, i don’t think they’re going to bring them back anytime soon. 29 doesn’t really need an express service as it doesn’t serve that many stops, but the 88 definitely needs one for sure.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's all in perspective of what is slow or fast, and in the design of the schedules.
They ordered and designed the MP40 to meet their criteria and to meet their schedules. Or to build the schedules around the specifications around the capabilities of their trains.

Sure EMU's are faster but even at the standards of today and post covid traffic 1 hour and 15 minutes from West Harbor to Union is very competitive vs taking the car. If you take any weather delays or accidents driving is probably slower.

At 9L per 100km 67km is. $13.70 in gas. $13.60 with the GO train and you dont have to pay for the wear and tear or insurance not to mention car payments.

I think that's a pretty good deal. I'm sure the express train could do that trip in 50min.

as someone who does the drive regularly, outside of peak rush hour it's pretty easy to do that drive in less than 1:15.*especially* if you are not just sticking to the right lane doing 90 the whole way (in the parts without traffic at least).

Generally 0:45 in no traffic (late at night) to a little under an hour in other times. Morning rush hour might be more like 1:15, evening 1:25 or so. 1 hour gives some time for a few minutes of congestion through Oakville, Mississauga, and on the Gardiner itself, which is typical, but otherwise much of that route moves at 100km/h or so.

Pre-covid, it was longer, but traffic levels haven't returned to that level of congestion yet. (it got closish last summer). Even pre-covid, worse case would be 1:30-1:40 on a disaster friday night before a long weekend type drive.


You can see this with the Hamilton express bus schedules, which generally schedules 1:00 trip times outside of rush hour. And we all know that GO buses drive a lot slower than private vehicles.

1:15 is generally competitive, but when you consider longer last mile connections (unless your origin and destination happens to be right beside West Harbour and Union), driving wins out a lot more.

Running Niagara weekend trip super-express trains would help a lot, which if they were to stop at West Harbour could likely make the trip in a little under an hour.

 

[Richard White]

Running Niagara weekend trip super-express trains would help a lot, which if they were to stop at West Harbour could likely make the trip in a little under an hour.

Super Express trains would likely increase usage a fair bit. Right now it is almost 3 hours with stops at every city along the way.

Even if it is only one train every morning that deadheads from Union to Niagara, it would be alot faster than stopping at Union, Exhibition, Mimico, Port Credit, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, St Catherines and then Niagara,.

 

[ShonTron]

Yeah, the additional stop on the 30 doesn’t bother me much. The Meadowvale area has a few Mississauga and Brampton buses running through it, so there are some useful connections there.

Routing the 88 through Downtown Bowmanville is annoyingly slow, especially as a connection was already available at the Highway 2/35-115 lot.

 

[Deadpool X]

as someone who does the drive regularly, outside of peak rush hour it's pretty easy to do that drive in less than 1:15.*especially* if you are not just sticking to the right lane doing 90 the whole way (in the parts without traffic at least).

Generally 0:45 in no traffic (late at night) to a little under an hour in other times. Morning rush hour might be more like 1:15, evening 1:25 or so. 1 hour gives some time for a few minutes of congestion through Oakville, Mississauga, and on the Gardiner itself, which is typical, but otherwise much of that route moves at 100km/h or so.

Pre-covid, it was longer, but traffic levels haven't returned to that level of congestion yet. (it got closish last summer). Even pre-covid, worse case would be 1:30-1:40 on a disaster friday night before a long weekend type drive.


You can see this with the Hamilton express bus schedules, which generally schedules 1:00 trip times outside of rush hour. And we all know that GO buses drive a lot slower than private vehicles.

1:15 is generally competitive, but when you consider longer last mile connections (unless your origin and destination happens to be right beside West Harbour and Union), driving wins out a lot more.

Running Niagara weekend trip super-express trains would help a lot, which if they were to stop at West Harbour could likely make the trip in a little under an hour.

I'll add 2 more points to this:

1. Many couples work in downtown and driving may be a cheaper option for such couples, including parking.

2. Most of the downtown workforce is not within walking distance from Union. So, that's $6.40 of additional TTC fare per day.

GO should either be a lot faster to compete on time or much cheaper to compete on price.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I'll add 2 more points to this:

1. Many couples work in downtown and driving may be a cheaper option for such couples, including parking.

2. Most of the downtown workforce is not within walking distance from Union. So, that's $6.40 of additional TTC fare per day.

GO should either be a lot faster to compete on time or much cheaper to compete on price.

Parking at City Hall (link). Still cheaper for a couple to use the TTC. Most forget about the cost of gasoline or other fuels, maintenance, depreciation, insurance, etc..

Rate Information​

$3.50/half hour


Day Maximum (7am – 6pm): $20.00

Night Maximum (6pm – 7am): $6.00

Sat/Sun/Holidays

Maximum (7am – 7am): $8.00

 

[reaperexpress]

What is this dissussion? There is no distinct boundary between "competitive" and "uncompetitive".

Every origin-destination pair will have a different ratio of car:transit travel time depending on factors such as proximity to stations/stops, availability/cost of parking, etc. And every individual has different preferences regarding the relative importance of travel time, cost, comfort, etc. And even then, different people subconsciously weight different types of travel time differently. Some people may weight time in a train lower than the same amount of time driving, since they could do something else at the same time (watch a movie, work, etc), meanwhile they may weight the time spent waiting for a bus/train higher than the same amount of time driving, because it's annoying. And then some people don't care at all, weighting all types of travel time equally (i.e. they just want to get there as quickly as possible, regardless of how much effort it takes).

Every minute you cut off of a GO bus/train schedule makes it a bit more competitive against the alternatives. Sure, a 12-car train with one 4-axle diesel locomotive may be "adequate" for GO's specifications, but the same locomotive pulling 6 coaches will get people from point A to point B several minutes quicker and attract a few more potential riders - as long as crowding isn't a problem. Hence the need for express services, particularly during busier periods.

 

[Bordercollie]

What is this dissussion? There is no distinct boundary between "competitive" and "uncompetitive".

Every origin-destination pair will have a different ratio of car:transit travel time depending on factors such as proximity to stations/stops, availability/cost of parking, etc. And every individual has different preferences regarding the relative importance of travel time, cost, comfort, etc. And even then, different people subconsciously weight different types of travel time differently. Some people may weight time in a train lower than the same amount of time driving, since they could do something else at the same time (watch a movie, work, etc), meanwhile they may weight the time spent waiting for a bus/train higher than the same amount of time driving, because it's annoying. And then some people don't care at all, weighting all types of travel time equally (i.e. they just want to get there as quickly as possible, regardless of how much effort it takes).

Every minute you cut off of a GO bus/train schedule makes it a bit more competitive against the alternatives. Sure, a 12-car train with one 4-axle diesel locomotive may be "adequate" for GO's specifications, but the same locomotive pulling 6 coaches will get people from point A to point B several minutes quicker and attract a few more potential riders - as long as crowding isn't a problem. Hence the need for express services, particularly during busier periods.

Right but then there is the cost to procure additional locomotives and train crews not to mention the track time.

 

[reaperexpress]

Right but then there is the cost to procure additional locomotives and train crews not to mention the track time.

Yes. Better service does typically cost more to operate. Though it's worth noting that GO still has some trains in storage, and owns the tracks for the central portion of all lines, if not the entire line.

A notable exception is when you can cut a service's round trip time. For example, getting off the highway to serve a park-and-ride lot adds around 5 minutes to a bus schedule. If your route runs every 30 minutes (e.g. route 40 Hamilton-Pearson-RHC) and you cut out 3 stops (e.g. Main & Longwood, Burlington P&R, Oakville P&R), you save around 15 minutes per direction, which is 30 minutes round trip. And you can remove one bus from the route, while maintaining the same frequency.

The same principle applies to express trains, though the effect is less dramatic because each stop skipped only saves about 2 minutes, or 3 minutes in areas with very high track speeds (e.g. Appleby, Bronte, Clarkson). If you can run from Kitchener to Toronto in 1h40 (as 6-car express trains did in 2021), you can run an hourly service with 4 trainsets. There would be 20 minutes of terminal time on average, partly to change the train's direction, but mostly to neutralise delays before the return trip. If the trip takes longer than about 1h50, running hourly service with only 4 trainsets would result in an average terminal time of only 10 minutes, which is too risky for such a long route travelling along single-tracked lines and unpredictable CN territory. So you'd need 5 trainsets. Compared to a 1h40 travel time, a 1h50 travel time results in 25% higher operating cost and lower ridership demand (revenue).

Bottom line: splitting a 12-car train into two 6-car trains does increase operating costs, but it's not double. On top of the speed related cost savings I described above, you also have the advantage that you can just park one of them off-peak and avoid dragging around 12 coaches all day even when they're not required. 12-car trains might make sense for some trains which run one express roundtrip at the peak of rush hour, but the trainsets which will be running most of the off-peak local service should be kept as short as practical.

 

[smallspy]

Every minute you cut off of a GO bus/train schedule makes it a bit more competitive against the alternatives. Sure, a 12-car train with one 4-axle diesel locomotive may be "adequate" for GO's specifications, but the same locomotive pulling 6 coaches will get people from point A to point B several minutes quicker and attract a few more potential riders - as long as crowding isn't a problem. Hence the need for express services, particularly during busier periods.

Sure, but......

Who's paying for all of those additional costs?

Dan

 

[Deadpool X]

Sure, but......

Who's paying for all of those additional costs?

Dan

Revenue from new passengers who will shift from cars to GO if the latter is faster and more frequent.

 

[EnviroTO]

Bottom line: splitting a 12-car train into two 6-car trains does increase operating costs, but it's not double.

It isn't double, but the highest operating costs for the transport industry are typically staffing and fuel and those costs would be close to double. You would keep the number of train cars the same so that would be equal, but there would be double the locomotives, double the staff, more energy but not double (double the locomotives but not as much energy used to pull the train), and some improvement on speed would mean over time the same train could potentially run an additional trip which is savings. However there are other factors that could make it a wise change such as higher ridership overall due to convenient service, an electrified train which would increase speed more significantly than simply switching to diesel pulled 6-car trains, and of course if there was anything that could be done to reduce staffing that would help too but admittedly that is more easily done in metros than regional rail. Massive trains with a single attendant is pretty efficient on the staffing side of things. At some point perhaps there is more value in having station platform attendants than accessibility car attendants, and a continued push to reduce the number of people needing to see a ticketing counter (i.e. categorizing the transactions happening at ticket windows and determining how to reduce those activities; for example reducing Presto card issues). Driverless trains are probably a ways off yet... but with driverless cars coming it would actually be easier to implement automated trains on heavy rail.

 

[KevinT]

Who's paying for all of those additional costs?

Ideally the increased ridership due to the better service patterns.

 

[reaperexpress]

Sure, but......

Who's paying for all of those additional costs?

In the longer term, the passengers. Full trains are profitable.
In the short term, the taxpayers. You need to have an attractive service before you can fill up trains.

Nederlandse Spoorwegen, who runs 12 trains per hour off-peak on my local line (2 intercity + 6 regional express + 4 local), turned a profit prior to the pandemic. In 2019 they turned a profit of € 215 Million, which was returned to the Government of the Netherlands. Their costs do not include the entire costs of building/maintaining railways (they pay fairly affordable track fees), but the profits of bus companies also don't include the entire costs of building/maintaining highways, and car ownership/operations costs don't cover any significant portion of road/highway construction or maintenance.

GO is currently in the stage where they need to incur losses in order to generate the ridership required to profitably support regular off-peak train service. It takes time for travel patterns and development travels to change in response to improved train service.

GO Transit 2018-2019 Annual Report

GO Expansion Business Case, page 130:

 

[ARG1]

This was from a reddit post discussing the service "increase" from last week.

I really hope this is fake... I hope to god that this is fake.