GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[ssiguy2]

Poland's PKP Cargo has just joined forces with JWC mining to develop and possibly build hydrogen powered freight trains. and they will be working with Alstom on the technology. When successful, GO commuter rail could also use freight as a freight train is a hell of a lot heavier than any commuter rail train.

This backed up by now the very successful trial of Hydrail EMU in Germany and now 13 hydrogen rail projects on the books worldwide seems to be solidifying Hydrail's future. Alstom has received orders for 50 Cordia Link hydrogen trains which can travel up 140 km/hr and travel 1000 km between refuels.

With the huge infrastructure savings of not electrifying the RER network, the fact that the trains could be on the RER system BEFORE the next provincial election, potential new Alstom plant, creating a new hydrogen industry, and Ford being able to put his own name on RER as opposed to just continuing a Wynne legacy, I am increasingly thinking Ford will go Hydrail. I am increasingly also thinking that this will be the best route for Toronto RER as electrification costs give Ford an excuse to push the project even further back. Hydrail is proving itself as hydrogen buses already have and perhaps it's time Toronto actually took a lead on a technology instead of regretting it 15 years from now when the system may still be running diesel pulled trains.

With Alstom already plying the technology and being heavily invested and researched in by Siemens, Talgo, Skoda, and CCRW {where they already have new hydrogen tram systems}, I think the writing is on the wall

 

[steveintoronto]

^ To replace propane driven ones.

The plans were announced in the Serbian webportal energetskiportal.rs. According to the media source, the companies have joined hands research, analyse and potentially produce the new rolling stock using hydrogen fuel.

Green initiative
The main goal is to lower the consumption of energy and reduce the emissions currently produced by commercial and industrial trains. “The use of hydrogen to drive our locomotives will increase the competitiveness of our services”, PKP Cargo president, Czeslaw Warsewicz was cited.

https://www.railfreight.com/technol...may-produce-rolling-stock-fueled-by-hydrogen/

There's a few bites to tinker with it, Poland has been involved for a few years, there's still no breakthrough other than (gist) "where real electric supply is impractical".

 

[crs1026]

Are you sure about that? I've been Googling to find that put into words. Could you provide a link?

Rebaselining is my word, not theirs.... but it's close enough to what they are doing. Call it what you will. The essence is, they will not wait until FY 2019 to address government spending. They will identify spending that can stop in FY 2018 rather than accept the revenue and deficit picture that the budget Wynne delivered immediately before the election.

- Paul

 

[Neutrino]

Remember that Ottawa has pledged money for RER so Ford won't want to forgo that kind of largess. That said the Liberals and Metrolinx made a mess of RER by building parking garages {Metrolinx now runs the largest parking lot system in NA} instead of electrifying the system, more aggressively twinning track, buying rolling stock, and creating grade separations.

Are we going over this again?

 

[steveintoronto]

The essence is, they will not wait until FY 2019 to address government spending. They will identify spending that can stop in FY 2018 rather than accept the revenue and deficit picture that the budget Wynne delivered immediately before the election.

So that brings us back to DBFOM contracts. You just caught me checking out the Metrolinx use of the word, as the term is clearly defined in a general sense in law.

Design-Build-Finance-Operate-Maintain (DBFOM)
A project delivery mechanism government entities often use to structure the construction of public infrastructure projects such as roads, bridges and airports. In this structure, the government entity enters into an agreement with a private sector party under which it allocates to that party all of the project's duties. This includes designing, constructing, financing, operating and maintaining the project. In exchange for assuming these obligations, the private sector party is entitled to receive, for a specified period, fees from the end users of the project or payments from the government in the form of availability payments or shadow tolls. At the end of the period, operating control is transferred back to the government entity. This structure is preferred by many governmental entities because:

• It allocates most of the risks of the project to the private sector.
• They are able to construct a project for which they may not have the financial, technical or operational capacity.

For more information on DBFOM and other structures that may used to construct projects in the US, see Practice Notes:

• Public Private Partnerships: Issues and Considerations.
• Negotiating Concession Agreements for Public Infrastructure Projects.

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreut...ansitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)

Here's a Metrolinx discussion on DBFOM as it pertains to their operations:
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...On_Corridor_Works_Procurement_Strategy_EN.pdf

I will post more specific examples later, but suffice to say for now that Crosstown has already witnessed the use of this model, and there's a case headed to court of Crosslinx v. Metrolinx, IIRC. Some parameters are still being set by tort law on this in Ontario.

So since many if not most present Metrolinx projects are DBFOM, where can Ford get his "savings" and where do we see the evidence of that save to having believe him? His grasp of reality has been pretty sadly lacking up until now.

As I proffered prior, since the Private Sector is shouldering the vast majority of risk...where's Ford's case to stop a number of very important projects already in motion?

We have only Ford's word on the "savings". Meantime, the more I dig on the "Independent Audit" the more alarm bells are going off.

My complaint with DBFOM is that it replaces the whole ML financial management regime with a single monthly invoice. The cost is set by a competitive tender, but there are so many moving parts - and so much room for change orders, service redesign, etc etc - that the cost figure is not really static. It will get revised. There will be little onus on the vendor to explain those increases.

It all depends on the contract!

Are you suggesting that Ford 'rewrites' the terms of those contracts? I advocate for DBFOMs since in the absence of deep coffers, it's the only way forward to get things built, which is why this and other forms of P3 have worked so well in other nations (with caveats, of course). You claimed the cost of financing by the 'gov't' is cheaper than for a P3. In some cases, yes, along with assuming much greater risk, but in most cases it's cheaper and far more expedient to use P3, even if the consortium's cost of financing is slightly higher, but they also assume most of the risk.

How many people do you know that bought their new car with cash? Their house? Well if they didn't mortgage, think of all the money they could save! (Of course they don't have the cash, so do they do without?)

Ford won't let the message say that though. It'll all be about the "elites" again..."subways, subways, subways..."

 

[johntauren]

Probably because the Bramalea pocket track is out of service (the platform ripped up and unusable). It's a pretty useless trip compared to the needs the Kitchener line has.

That platform has been out of service for years now, at least 3 by my estimation. And it looked ready to be repaved 3 years ago. What exactly has been going on with platform four at Bramalea?

 

[muller877]

Here's a Metrolinx discussion on DBFOM as it pertains to their operations:
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...On_Corridor_Works_Procurement_Strategy_EN.pdf
....
So since many if not most present Metrolinx projects are DBFOM, where can Ford get his "savings" and where do we see the evidence of that save to having believe him? His grasp of reality has been pretty sadly lacking up until now.
.....
It all depends on the contract!

Just like any contract they nail you for any post-singing changes. If you ask for a quote on the Taj Mahal they will give you the Taj Mahal at the quoted rate. But if you quote for a warehouse and then change the specs as you go along to eventually get the Taj Mahal it'll cost you.

I was talking to a person in the healthcare sector about it (most new hospitals are under DBFOM or at least DBF). He worked at a hospital that carefully drafted their RFP and refused any group that wanted bells and whistles after the RFP went out (and said no to most when the RFP was drafted). And the build (by Ellis Don) was on time and on budget.

Then he went to work at another hospital. They never had a well defined RFP and kept on asking for extras. And it went over budget 30%+ (also by Ellis Don). Go figure!

There needs to be a review on the Spadina extension and the Crosstown. To get best practices. How not to build a Taj Mahal (stations on the Spadina extension)? How not to create delays and coordinate among various levels of gov't and utilities owned by a gov't (Crosstown)? Keep the costs lower and we may be able to actually build transit

 

[ShonTron]

That platform has been out of service for years now, at least 3 by my estimation. And it looked ready to be repaved 3 years ago. What exactly has been going on with platform four at Bramalea?

I think there was a contract issue. It was almost ready to be paved and the signs and lights put back up. But there is a silver lining. Bramalea Station is being rebuilt again, but will include a new station building, an even bigger bus loop designed for easier access from Steeles Avenue, and a parking garage with direct access to the platforms. The main platform is being rebuilt right now as part of it as well. The new platform melt system will address all the salt GO dumps on its platforms too.

 

[steveintoronto]

Just like any contract they nail you for any post-singing changes. If you ask for a quote on the Taj Mahal they will give you the Taj Mahal at the quoted rate. But if you quote for a warehouse and then change the specs as you go along to eventually get the Taj Mahal it'll cost you.

I was talking to a person in the healthcare sector about it (most new hospitals are under DBFOM or at least DBF). He worked at a hospital that carefully drafted their RFP and refused any group that wanted bells and whistles after the RFP went out (and said no to most when the RFP was drafted). And the build (by Ellis Don) was on time and on budget.

Then he went to work at another hospital. They never had a well defined RFP and kept on asking for extras. And it went over budget 30%+ (also by Ellis Don). Go figure!

There needs to be a review on the Spadina extension and the Crosstown. To get best practices. How not to build a Taj Mahal (stations on the Spadina extension)? How not to create delays and coordinate among various levels of gov't and utilities owned by a gov't (Crosstown)? Keep the costs lower and we may be able to actually build transit

The Spadina and Crosstown are probably too late, albeit other than to learn in retrospect, and Crosstown is going to court (Crosslinx v. Metrolinx), but I completely agree with your gist.

After posting what I did, I had a dread my intent and thrust would be very misunderstood. You've completely understood it, and hopefully others will comment further, as this discussion always was germane, it will be even more so with tight coffers.

Some of the best examples of DBFOM (and other P3 models) are from conservative regimes, very well implemented, and everyone came out ahead and so able to move onto the next project. My big fear is not Ontario's 'move to the right' (Historically, I am Conservative) but Ontario's 'move to the madness'. Doug Ford *is not* a 'good conservative' by the yardsticks of other progressive nations. He's a Neanderthal, and as such will purposely misuse "DBFOM" as a political football.

I think DBFOM deserves a string of its own at UT, it encompasses far more than just transit, as you point out with hospitals et al.

It is *essential* that we get the term, the advantages, disadvantages and the politics right on this, or frankly, we're screwed.

 

[steveintoronto]

I think there was a contract issue. It was almost ready to be paved and the signs and lights put back up.

Whether connected to the 'dispute' or not, the Metrolinx info on this is now showing "error":

Bramalea Station | Construction Projects | The Future & GO | GO Transit
https://www.gotransit.com/en/the-future-go/improvements/bramalea/bramalea

 

[LNahid2000]

Whether connected to the 'dispute' or not, the Metrolinx info on this is now showing "error":

Bramalea Station | Construction Projects | The Future & GO | GO Transit
https://www.gotransit.com/en/the-future-go/improvements/bramalea/bramalea

Not connected at all. Their entire website has been down for the last hour.

 

[jcam]

The Spadina and Crosstown are probably too late, albeit other than to learn in retrospect, and Crosstown is going to court (Crosslinx v. Metrolinx), but I completely agree with your gist.

After posting what I did, I had a dread my intent and thrust would be very misunderstood. You've completely understood it, and hopefully others will comment further, as this discussion always was germane, it will be even more so with tight coffers.

Some of the best examples of DBFOM (and other P3 models) are from conservative regimes, very well implemented, and everyone came out ahead and so able to move onto the next project. My big fear is not Ontario's 'move to the right' (Historically, I am Conservative) but Ontario's 'move to the madness'. Doug Ford *is not* a 'good conservative' by the yardsticks of other progressive nations. He's a Neanderthal, and as such will purposely misuse "DBFOM" as a political football.

I think DBFOM deserves a string of its own at UT, it encompasses far more than just transit, as you point out with hospitals et al.

It is *essential* that we get the term, the advantages, disadvantages and the politics right on this, or frankly, we're screwed.

It all rests on how the procurement documents and contract documents are constructed - what contractual levers are in place, but also the management of that contract and how the levers are/aren't used. Biggest issue with DBFOMs is owner's treating them like they're still DBB (Design-Bid-Builds), both in how they spec (or over spec) and then how they take back risk by interfering and over-managing. The biggest challenge hospitals have had is that IO foisted DBFOM's on them (rightfully so, for the advantages you noted), but gave them no operational support for these hospital agencies to effectively manage the 30 year performance contract, and be prepared to be an appropriate counter-party to the operator.

Organizations like Metrolinx (GO Transit) and TTC are used to the DBB world, where the commercial side of the equation doesn't matter as much....its increaslingly imperative that project managers have a good base of commercial management, as owner decisions have a much different impact to cost and schedule in a DBFOM vs. a DBB.

 

[crs1026]

^Many good points. My concern is exactly what has been stated - ML either not appreciating themselves what a good spec should include, or asking for things (that they ought to know) sound nice politically but are hard to deliver without some expensive modification to the spec.
I don’t argue with DBFOM as a concept - it’s used wisely, and successfully. The concern is whether ML has the expertise to use it well. Too many stories going round about things discovered after the fact, leading to rework or change orders. I would like to see more key design decisions made in house and the vendor bidding on the result of that. ML is posting an RFP that says ‘design and deliver a wardrobe’ where they should make internal decision that their wardrobe should be a blue suit, two black suits, and three pairs of jeans.... and then tender for that. That makes them accountable if they later find they need a blue shirt.... but that builds more internal organizational acumen, and clearly vendors charge big bucks to assume that kind of risk.
So far, with RER there has been very little clarity on the design spec. That feels like the foundation for a very unsuccessful RFP.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Not connected at all. Their entire website has been down for the last hour.

It's back up and running. The page details what's happening at the Bramalea GO Station. This article also has the details.

 

[nfitz]

I don't know if I'm just completely befuddled by the new GO Transit website, of if they are just not communicating the extra CNE service for Labour Day weekend very well.

I poked around the various service change pages and found nothing at all. But then I noticed a link on the front page only to https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-with-us/promotions-and-events which simply says "Don’t miss the air show with our special event train service on Labour Day weekend – September 1 to 3 – on the Milton, Kitchener and Stouffville lines. Click here to Plan your Trip"

But when I click on it, there's nothing simple, just a link to the trip planner. With some trial and error, I found one eastbound train at least from Bramalea direct to Exhibition ...

But surely there's an easier way! What am I missing?