GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Allandale25]

Because there's another rail corridor that runs through the middle of Oshawa and Bowmanville. That means Go Transit can be better-connected to local transit and attract more passengers than they would at a station that relies on people to drive in for nearly all of its usage.

And just to be clear, the "another rail corridor" being referred to here is the CP Rail one. I agree with switching from the LSE tracks to the CP Rail tracks via the plan shown. It brings the stations closer to where people live and local transit routes.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Because there's another rail corridor that runs through the middle of Oshawa and Bowmanville. That means Go Transit can be better-connected to local transit and attract more passengers than they would at a station that relies on people to drive in for nearly all of its usage.

And just to be clear, the "another rail corridor" being referred to here is the CP Rail one. I agree with switching from the LSE tracks to the CP Rail tracks via the plan shown. It brings the stations closer to where people live and local transit routes.

I support this, but it looks like GO has changed it's mind.

 

[nfitz]

Why not just continue on the current line and build the Clarington stations near the lake? This plan always contradicted the Lakeshore East RER plan

Particularly low density. And as everybody is too the north, few lose much by running further north, and putting a lot more people into walking/cycling distance. Besides they'll have to build new track somewhere or another, so really, the only cost is the overpass and connecting track.

With the change to keep the existing station, there's still an option in the future of extending service there - if something magically happens and there's anything to service - but perhaps Storybrook will apperate or something.

Though I see nothing worth serving on that CN line until Port Hope, by which the CP line is running along the same alignment, and already has some rail service in rush hour to Toronto with VIA. It's already an hour to Oshawa though, with the fastest express still taking 46 minutes. Even with all their issues, VIA is servicing Oshawa in as quick as 31 minutes and Port Hope in 61 minutes, and on their best run, Coburg in 62 minutes during the PM comute.

 

[amnesiajune]

I support this, but it looks like GO has changed it's mind.

They've changed their mind on abandoning the current Oshawa Go/Via Rail station. They're going to have two branches of LSE during rush hour, like they currently do in Hamilton. One will go to Oshawa, the other will go to four new stations in Oshawa and Clarington.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Particularly low density. And as everybody is too the north, few lose much by running further north, and putting a lot more people into walking/cycling distance. Besides they'll have to build new track somewhere or another, so really, the only cost is the overpass and connecting track.

With the change to keep the existing station, there's still an option in the future of extending service there - if something magically happens and there's anything to service - but perhaps Storybrook will apperate or something.

Though I see nothing worth serving on that CN line until Port Hope, by which the CP line is running along the same alignment, and already has some rail service in rush hour to Toronto with VIA. It's already an hour to Oshawa though, with the fastest express still taking 46 minutes. Even with all their issues, VIA is servicing Oshawa in as quick as 31 minutes and Port Hope in 61 minutes, and on their best run, Coburg in 62 minutes during the PM comute.

This is true. I always thought GO service to Port Hope/Coburg would be good but I didn't think the ridership would be there.

They've changed their mind on abandoning the current Oshawa Go/Via Rail station. They're going to have two branches of LSE during rush hour, like they currently do in Hamilton. One will go to Oshawa, the other will go to four new stations in Oshawa and Clarington.

Make sense.

 

[crs1026]

It all depends on how fast development finds the area. So many people from Courtice Bowmanville and Newcastle already drive to the GO in Oshawa. The extension won't attract new riders only - it will empty the Oshawa parking lot in favour of the new stations further east. That may open the door to 'last mile' solutions that eliminate the drive, although those solutions don't do well anywhere in GO space.
The peak diesel service opens the door to more express trains from the Durham stops to Union.
The two routes converge east of Newcastle anyways. Better to take the CP route which is where the current development is.
- Paul
PS - at the rate Durham is growing northwards, I wonder how long before someone proposes extending the Bowmanville peak service west along CP from Oshawa to Agincourt and then doen to Union. That would be the mirror image of service to Milton in the sense that the Miltton line syphons off people who would otherwise drive down to LSW. Makes me wonder if the cost of the big overpasses from Oshawa West to the CP line might better spent on an all CP routing via Leaside and the Don. That investment could complement/enable the VIA HFR build.

 

[joet00]

And detailed GO Transit Schedule Changes for September 2nd are up: http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/updates/schedulechanges.aspx

These Barrie Line changes are close to home (literally) so I figured it was a good opportunity to stop just lurking and chime in.

Any new train is a welcome addition. I hope the parking situation improves, particularly if off-peak weekday is around the corner (fingers crossed). Newmarket has a tiny lot, but Aurora has a parking structure and yet both are full by the 7:30-ish train -- that's the 4th of 5 trains under the existing schedule, but will be 6th of 8 after the changes. If I'm catching a later train, a non-driving/parking means to the station is the way to go. I wonder if YRT is any closer to the micro-transit options they've been talking about.

I can't find it just now, but there was mention of the new layover at Bradford storing 2 6-packs overnight. Will the new train be a longer consist? Or will a 2nd Bradford train be announced in the (near) future?

15-minute rush hour service is a positive development, even if only for an hour (departing Allandale 6:05, 6:20, 6:35, 6:50), exceeding the every-30-minutes-during-peak promised in ML's RER materials. I hope this is for the long term. The Stouffville off-peak is a timely reminder of how people don't like to "lose" what they've got (buses every 30 mins vs. trains every hour). I expect the Barrie line will see similar rumblings if we, too, get hour trains replacing buses every 30 mins.

The 66 is being extended to East Gwillimbury, and the 68 is being rerouted to that station as well. I wonder what GO's plan are for Newmarket Bus Terminal longer term. IMO, it is a key hub (connections to Viva Blue and Viva Yellow and all the local YRT services). But, come Sep. 2, there will be no direct connection to Barrie. And the terminal lost all weekend service last December when weekend train service was introduced.

Will the 66 be redundant once we have off-peak trains plus the subway to Vaughan? Has anyone seen any details on GO's plans once the subway is running?

 

[Megaton327]

Will the 66 be redundant once we have off-peak trains plus the subway to Vaughan? Has anyone seen any details on GO's plans once the subway is running?

There will be a Barrie Line GO Train Station at Downsview Park GO/TTC, which is the first station in the expansion, one stop north of Sheppard West (formerly Downsview). It will probably replace York University GO, and will provide a direct, fairly seamless GO Train/subway connection.

Cutting the 66 would cut service to the Hwy 400 park and ride lots at both Hwy 9 and Major Mackenzie. And while the GO Train provides a very good connection to Yorkdale via Downsview Park, it will likely require the payment of a $3 TTC fare in addition to the GO fare, each way. And, as you noted, it would service East Gwillimbury and Newmarket GO, not the bus terminal. I think the 66 will probably continue to run.

Newmarket Bus Terminal is a real pickle. On one hand, it's been a huge bus hub for many years and many rely on it. On the other hand, Viva Yellow comes, I think, about every 15 minutes, and the Main St rapidway stop 2 stops east of the bus terminal is about a 1-2 minute walk from the Newmarket GO platform.

Personally, I think the service change on weekends to operate service out of Newmarket GO instead of the bus terminal is fair when trains are running, given the rapidway connection for a $1 ride-to-go fare. However, it is a poor experience to have to take the Viva to Newmarket GO to catch a GO bus to connect to trains at Aurora GO the rest of the day.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It all depends on how fast development finds the area. So many people from Courtice Bowmanville and Newcastle already drive to the GO in Oshawa. The extension won't attract new riders only - it will empty the Oshawa parking lot in favour of the new stations further east. That may open the door to 'last mile' solutions that eliminate the drive, although those solutions don't do well anywhere in GO space.
The peak diesel service opens the door to more express trains from the Durham stops to Union.
The two routes converge east of Newcastle anyways. Better to take the CP route which is where the current development is.
- Paul
PS - at the rate Durham is growing northwards, I wonder how long before someone proposes extending the Bowmanville peak service west along CP from Oshawa to Agincourt and then doen to Union. That would be the mirror image of service to Milton in the sense that the Miltton line syphons off people who would otherwise drive down to LSW. Makes me wonder if the cost of the big overpasses from Oshawa West to the CP line might better spent on an all CP routing via Leaside and the Don. That investment could complement/enable the VIA HFR build.

Thanks Paul. I'm glad progress is happening here. This seems to be the easiest line.

These Barrie Line changes are close to home (literally) so I figured it was a good opportunity to stop just lurking and chime in.

Any new train is a welcome addition. I hope the parking situation improves, particularly if off-peak weekday is around the corner (fingers crossed). Newmarket has a tiny lot, but Aurora has a parking structure and yet both are full by the 7:30-ish train -- that's the 4th of 5 trains under the existing schedule, but will be 6th of 8 after the changes. If I'm catching a later train, a non-driving/parking means to the station is the way to go. I wonder if YRT is any closer to the micro-transit options they've been talking about.

I can't find it just now, but there was mention of the new layover at Bradford storing 2 6-packs overnight. Will the new train be a longer consist? Or will a 2nd Bradford train be announced in the (near) future?

15-minute rush hour service is a positive development, even if only for an hour (departing Allandale 6:05, 6:20, 6:35, 6:50), exceeding the every-30-minutes-during-peak promised in ML's RER materials. I hope this is for the long term. The Stouffville off-peak is a timely reminder of how people don't like to "lose" what they've got (buses every 30 mins vs. trains every hour). I expect the Barrie line will see similar rumblings if we, too, get hour trains replacing buses every 30 mins.

The 66 is being extended to East Gwillimbury, and the 68 is being rerouted to that station as well. I wonder what GO's plan are for Newmarket Bus Terminal longer term. IMO, it is a key hub (connections to Viva Blue and Viva Yellow and all the local YRT services). But, come Sep. 2, there will be no direct connection to Barrie. And the terminal lost all weekend service last December when weekend train service was introduced.

Will the 66 be redundant once we have off-peak trains plus the subway to Vaughan? Has anyone seen any details on GO's plans once the subway is running?

Welcome to UT!
I feel the rollout for Stouffville and Brampton has been hamfisted.

 

[amnesiajune]

Cutting the 66 would cut service to the Hwy 400 park and ride lots at both Hwy 9 and Major Mackenzie. And while the GO Train provides a very good connection to Yorkdale via Downsview Park, it will likely require the payment of a $3 TTC fare in addition to the GO fare, each way. And, as you noted, it would service East Gwillimbury and Newmarket GO, not the bus terminal. I think the 66 will probably continue to run.

The 66 isn't going anywhere because it's an all-day service. They might make some small adjustment during rush hour (perhaps route it to York Mills instead of Yorkdale) but there's no train alternative for most of the day.

Personally, I think the service change on weekends to operate service out of Newmarket GO instead of the bus terminal is fair when trains are running, given the rapidway connection for a $1 ride-to-go fare. However, it is a poor experience to have to take the Viva to Newmarket GO to catch a GO bus to connect to trains at Aurora GO the rest of the day.

You can take a Viva bus (or the 98) directly to Yonge & Wellington and walk four blocks east to get to the train station.

 

[steveintoronto]

Makes me wonder if the cost of the big overpasses from Oshawa West to the CP line might better spent on an all CP routing via Leaside and the Don. That investment could complement/enable the VIA HFR build.

Metrolinx appear to be holding the Don Valley spur tightly. It's got to be a potential ace in the hand for them. If it's used for one service, (GO express from Bowmanville) then it makes absolute sense to use it for HFR too. Any passenger track-sharing has to multiply the return per cost of investment.

 

[nfitz]

Metrolinx appear to be holding the Don Valley spur tightly. It's got to be a potential ace in the hand for them. If it's used for one service, (GO express from Bowmanville) then it makes absolute sense to use it for HFR too. Any passenger track-sharing has to multiply the return per cost of investment.

Give the cost and speed of getting from Leaside into Union, and the difficulty (ie. cost) of crossing the CN mainline, I'd start building 2 new tracks at Summerhill station, and running along the north side of the CP mainline from there to past Agincourt, to get to Peterorough with having to grade separate with the CP Mainline.

 

[Megaton327]

The 66 isn't going anywhere because it's an all-day service. They might make some small adjustment during rush hour (perhaps route it to York Mills instead of Yorkdale) but there's no train alternative for most of the day.

While I agree the 66 will probably stay, remember that by the end of the year, which is when the TYSSE opens, there will be midday offpeak AD2W train service on the Barrie line in addition to the current weekend service.

 

[djsurflfs]

Newmarket Bus Terminal is a real pickle. On one hand, it's been a huge bus hub for many years and many rely on it. On the other hand, Viva Yellow comes, I think, about every 15 minutes, and the Main St rapidway stop 2 stops east of the bus terminal is about a 1-2 minute walk from the Newmarket GO platform.

Personally, I think the service change on weekends to operate service out of Newmarket GO instead of the bus terminal is fair when trains are running, given the rapidway connection for a $1 ride-to-go fare. However, it is a poor experience to have to take the Viva to Newmarket GO to catch a GO bus to connect to trains at Aurora GO the rest of the day.

Having a separate GO train station and local bus terminal is not unique, and perfectly fine if there are good bus connections (see Oshawa, Bramalea, Cooksville/Sq1). The real issue here is that most weekend/off-peak trains turn back at Aurora where YRT connections are terrible and, on Sundays, non-existant. Not to mention that (for the next few years) train frequency is way worse than the half-hourly bus it replaced. It's really too bad frequent RER can't terminate at Newmarket or East Gwillimbury because otherwise, as you said, the Viva Yellow connection wouldn't really be that bad.

With more off-peak trains coming, I hope YRT will consider diverting some Yonge buses to Aurora GO. A good candidate would be the 22A bus, which runs parallel to the train line and will soon have weekend service. The walk from Yonge/Wellington to Aurora GO is 650m/8 min and not very pleasant on a rainy or snowy day, or for anyone with reduced mobility.

The 66 is being extended to East Gwillimbury, and the 68 is being rerouted to that station as well. I wonder what GO's plan are for Newmarket Bus Terminal longer term. IMO, it is a key hub (connections to Viva Blue and Viva Yellow and all the local YRT services). But, come Sep. 2, there will be no direct connection to Barrie. And the terminal lost all weekend service last December when weekend train service was introduced.

Barrie Line trains will likely replace all Route 65 buses except during late night, similar to the Lakeshore lines, so the bus terminal will be mainly used by YRT. I don't see why Route 66 would be cancelled anytime soon. Route 68 service through Innisfil will probably survive even after all-day train service extends to Barrie, but I can see GO wanting Simcoe County Transit to take it over, like when YRT took over the York U-Newmarket and Keswick GO buses.

 

[Megaton327]

Having a separate GO train station and local bus terminal is not unique, and perfectly fine if there are good bus connections (see Oshawa, Bramalea, Cooksville/Sq1). The real issue here is that most weekend/off-peak trains turn back at Aurora where YRT connections are terrible and, on Sundays, non-existant. Not to mention that (for the next few years) train frequency is way worse than the half-hourly bus it replaced. It's really too bad frequent RER can't terminate at Newmarket or East Gwillimbury because otherwise, as you said, the Viva Yellow connection wouldn't really be that bad.

With more off-peak trains coming, I hope YRT will consider diverting some Yonge buses to Aurora GO. A good candidate would be the 22A bus, which runs parallel to the train line and will soon have weekend service. The walk from Yonge/Wellington to Aurora GO is 650m/8 min and not very pleasant on a rainy or snowy day, or for anyone with reduced mobility.

Barrie Line trains will likely replace all Route 65 buses except during late night, similar to the Lakeshore lines, so the bus terminal will be mainly used by YRT. I don't see why Route 66 would be cancelled anytime soon. Route 68 service through Innisfil will probably survive even after all-day train service extends to Barrie, but I can see GO wanting Simcoe County Transit to take it over, like when YRT took over the York U-Newmarket and Keswick GO buses.

They might be able to extend the hourly offpeak weekday/weekend trains up to Barrie as soon as next summer, as they only need to complete double-tracking/sidings in a couple of locations north of Aurora in order to extend all runs to service the full route. The addition of the new Bradford-Union morning/evening peak last train indicates that the Bradford siding is good to go, as I imagine they're storing that train there overnight. And, of course, the long term plan once RER actually happens is for hourly trains Allandale-Union.

At that point I think they can easily terminate 65 and 68 buses as you said except for late at night like lakeshore. Depending on the timeline you're talking about, you may be forgetting that Innisfil GO should be built by the time RER is live--at that point Holland Landing is the only sizable area serviced by buses but not trains, so it's not worth maintaining the 68 as YRT is much more suitable for that, they already have the 52.

Compared to the problematic train implementation in Markham, the complaints there are more to do with the bus connection for all passengers north of Unionville--hourly trains to Allandale won't create an added connection and in fact remove a connection vs 68+65 buses, so no problem there, good tradeoff for hourly vs half-hourly; and the trip time savings Allandale-Aurora are pretty good, especially considering Barrie usually gets pretty nasty snow in the winter. Regarding 66, cutting 65 and 68 (which feeds it some passengers) might make it dubious as a lone wolf GO bus service out of that terminal given the Downsview Park subway connection...I'm not sure how much ridership there is on it today, with TYSSE and no 68 it may reach the point that they can tell the handful of riders to pay the extra TTC fare via downsview park to yorkdale (many of those riders are probably already boarding the TTC out of yorkdale, anyhow).