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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

My inexpert gut says let's use a nice round $1B. Even if I'm high by 100%, it's clearly a number that CP's shareholder would hold dear. The issue isn't CP executives being obstinate, it's the potential for shareholder litigation if CP settled for less than top dollar.

- Paul

Not a terrible guess, it might even be on the low side.

I think CP would hold fast for a provided replacement right of way, which once you start factoring in building a new ROW and all that entails (trackwork, signalling, junctions, expropriations, road under/overpasses, etc.) would be enormously expensive. Plus something for the land they would be selling. If it could ever happen, it wouldn't be any time soon given that the new ROW would need to be operational before ceasing operations on the old ROW. Fair play to CP; it's a major part of their system.
 
The purchase of the CN Oakville Sub from Union to Canpa - 9 miles- was $168M. The weston sub - 15 miles - was $160M. Consider that you would need to buy 30 miles from Milton to Leaside, and another 10 to Neilson Rd, and 10 to Woodbridge. Both of the CN lines were suburban - Imagine how much the sliver from Mount Pleasant to Bathurst alone would fetch with a solid line of 60 story condos on it.

My inexpert gut says let's use a nice round $1B. Even if I'm high by 100%, it's clearly a number that CP's shareholder would hold dear. The issue isn't CP executives being obstinate, it's the potential for shareholder litigation if CP settled for less than top dollar.

- Paul
Thanks for that! That's what I was looking for, and puts the numbers in perspective. It does indeed sound like CP is being very reasonable in comparison!
 
I am having so much fun using Ctrl+F on the Metrolinx PDFs these days.

I've since learned:

- They call the Grimsby sub, the "LW3" corridor (Lakeshore West 3)

My Commentary #1: Metrolinx consistently refers to the corridor towards Nigara as being part of "Lakeshore West". I haven't seen Metrolinx PDFs diverge from this concept, but this could change with other concepts (splitting the routes, by creating a separate Niagara Express to prevent Welland canal delays from interfering with the clockwork of Lakeshore West schedule).
My Commentary #2: Metrolinx internally breaks the Lakeshore West line in numeric segments (LW1, LW2, LW3) where LW1 was the original Oakville line, and LW2 is the Burlington extension, with LW3 being the brand new extension through JamesNorth/Confederation. Conjecture is LW4 would be Niagara Falls, in theory -- if ever announced.


- RER electricifation when it reaches Hamilton (future beyond current 10-year plan), is intended to go along LW3 and not to downtown Hamilton.

My Commentary #1: This interestingly conflicts against Wynne/StevenDeLuca desire to make Hamilton Downtown the AD2W terminal. Perhaps this is only the role for the 10 year plan; roles could switch later on. Whether this constitutes a plan change, or simply a role-switch flexibility in the future (other Metrolinx PDFs says that roles of Hamilton Downtown vs West Harbour "is to be determined"). One station can get peak service, and the other station gets AD2W service -- possibly before/after the A-Line LRT is built. My new Metrolinx prediction is that Downtown gets AD2W service at first, until A-Line LRT spur is built, then AD2W switches to West Harbour in a potential future 2020s/2030s electricifation announcement, with Hamilton Downtown getting morning/evening service in the post-LRT era.
My Commentary #2: If not interfered by government, current Metrolinx intent to electricify slowly towards Niagara, unless politically forced to do otherwise. Conjecture is that this theoretically opens the door to any future theoretical Acela Express someday coming to Toronto (even if it has to taxi at plain VIA speed after entering Canada) if USA proceeds with Empire Corridor electricifation proposals. It would presumably replace the existing Amtrak train. Probably not till mid-century, but the door is swung open.


- There vague hints of a potential station at Lewis trainyard past Stoney Creek

My Commentary #1: This information is vague but I also saw media mention that a temporary station may open at Lewis before Confederation opens, so there's some solid ground. It makes sense, since station spacing warrants a Lewis station, especially if Metrolinx already owns land there, big enough for storage of 8 GO trains.
My Commentary #2: The long term Lewis hint means there is exactly 3 stations in the "LW3" extension (WestHarbour, Confederation, Lewis), and the long term Bowmanville plan has exactly 3 stations. Symmetry for Lakeshore East / Lakeshore West to keep the services balanced?


- The Bowmanville extension is still on the master plan table but the extension is more complex than I thought
- The Oshawa-Bowmanville Lakeshore East extension has 3 new stations and the Hamilton-StoneyCreek-Lewis Lakeshore West extension has 3 new stations


I now understand why it's beyond the current 10-year time plan. It's more of a 20-year goal.
My Commentary #1: Multiple stations are planned (3 new GO stations!) and land is already purchased for several of them. So Metrolinx owns some Bowmanville extension lands. They have to build a a brand new railroad spur over the 401 to connect to the CP sub, in order to extend to Bowmanville. One or two roads needs to be regraded or redirected, when GO builds a short brand new railroad spur. Obviously, the CP sub may be tricky as Metrolinx has purchased more rail from CN instead of CP, and this might be what is dragging things on, even though Metrolinx already owns land for several extension stations towards Bowmanville.
My Commentary #2: The Bowmanville extension is useful to maintain symmetric Lakeshore East / Lakeshore West allday service, since the west extension to Confederation balances the east extension to Bowmanville. It almost balances out exactly. In a 25-year plan it is not impossible that 15-min RER service will someday (2030s,2040s?) occur between Bowmanville and Lewis Station, because that's exactly 3 additional new GO stations on both ends!


Governments obviously can and will interfere, accelerate or decelerate plans (see: SmartTrack), but if Metrolinx is left to its will, expect an eventual "someday" Bowmanville extension & West Harbour extension to keep the Lakeshore West / Lakeshore East services symmetric (the other end has to extend to balance things out). Metrolinx recently aggressively spent money to "protect" the plan for both ends.

Reading tea leaves is wholly speculative, but it is observed Metrolinx owns land for new GO stations at both ends (Lewis through Bowmanville), so there is money in the pot already, and recent Liberal announcements have stayed (more or less) consistent with past Metrolinx PDFs, with only a few deviations, and simply many delays (e.g. deadline promises are repeatedly broken, but the goal itself is not cancelled -- e.g. LW 30-min service 2008 delayed till 2012, Hamilton AD2W delayed 2015->2024 -- but not cancelled outright).

This is no 10-year plan -- this is more 20-year planning stuff.

Most of this info is searchable on Ctrl+F on many of the various specific PDF files linked from www.gotransit.com/electrification but also on many links when doing creative "Google Fu" advanced search syntax such as "+RER extension:pDF site:metrolinx.com"
 
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Amtrak is looking at doing 200km/h diesel on the empire corridor right now are they not? I thought full HSR had been dismissed.

Also, I suspect we may end up long term with hourly service to downtown hamilton with 15 minute services to West Harbour.
 
Milton line
-total length(revenue service); 31.3 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.5, Galt 30.0
-ownership; 4.85 GO(16%), 26.45 CP (no further increase in ownership possible)
-purchases;
2000 - USRC limits mile 0.0 to 1.45 = 1.45 miles
unknown date - Galt sub mile 1.45 to 4.8 = 3.35 miles

I can't find the exact date of the purchase, but I believe it was in 1997.

Barrie line
-total length(revenue service); 63.0 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.6, Weston 1.4, Newmarket 60.0
-ownership; 63.0 GO(100%)
-purchases;
1998 Dec 1 - (City of Barrie purchase) Newmarket sub mile 41.5 to 63.0 = 21.5 miles
unknown date - (ownership transfer to GO & additional track purchases) Newmarket sub mile 15.5 to 63.0 = 47.5 miles
2009 Dec 15 - Newmarket sub mile 3.0 to 15.5 = 12.5 miles for 68$ million

Stouffville line
-total length(revenue service); 30.7 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.4, Kingston 6.8, Uxbridge 22.3, 105(yard) track 0.2
-ownership; 30.7 GO(100%)
-purchases;
unknown date - Uxbridge mile 38.7 to 61.0 = 22.3 miles (GO also owes but does not operate on track past mile 38.7, current user; York-Durhan heritage railway)

I don't have the exact date, but it was early in 2001.

Addition corridor purchase, currently unused;
2014 CP Canpa sub mile 0.0 to 2.6 = 2.6 miles (rumored but unverified)

No rumour - it hasn't happened. The Canpa Sub and the Obico Yard are still owned by CP.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
- The Bowmanville extension is on the master plan table but the extension is more complex than I thought

My Commentary #1: Multiple stations are planned (3 new GO stations!) and land is already purchased for several of them. So Metrolinx owns some Bowmanville extension lands. They have to build a a brand new railroad spur over the 401 to connect to the CP sub, in order to extend to Bowmanville. One or two roads needs to be regraded or redirected, when GO builds a short brand new railroad spur.
My Commentary #2: The Bowmanville extension is useful to maintain symmetric Lakeshore East / Lakeshore West allday service, since the west extension to Confederation balances the east extension to Bowmanville. It almost balances out exactly. In a 25-year plan it is not impossible that 15-min RER service will someday (2030s,2040s?) occur between Bowmanville and Lewis Station, because that's exactly 3 additional new GO stations on both ends!

There are actually four new stations: Thornton's Corners, (new) Oshawa, Darlington, and Bowmanville (see Wikipedia for more info, including geotags). Doing the 401 flyover will actually recreate what is going on in Hamilton; two spurs, with one stub to the current Oshawa GO, and the other as part of the extension.

I personally don't see the need for the huge flyover. Metrolinx is planning to run regional rail along the Belleville sub from Agincourt Yard in Scarborough, to the Brock Road/Taunton Road area. Why not just keep going? Opens up opportunity to make additional stations in north Ajax and central Whitby too.
 
I can't find the exact date of the purchase, but I believe it was in 1997.

I don't have the exact date, but it was early in 2001.

No rumour - it hasn't happened. The Canpa Sub and the Obico Yard are still owned by CP.

Thanks for the additional info. Always figured that last one was nothing but an unsubstantiated rumor when it was brought up here a while back and I didn't hear nothing about it at work.
 
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I personally don't see the need for the huge flyover. Metrolinx is planning to run regional rail along the Belleville sub from Agincourt Yard in Scarborough, to the Brock Road/Taunton Road area. Why not just keep going? Opens up opportunity to make additional stations in north Ajax and central Whitby too.

Because unfortunately its the eastern equivalent to the Milton line. Aside from all the upgrades needed west of CP's yard(http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...irport-(Transport-Canada-GTAA-Proposed)/page8), the line is single tracked for 20 miles all the way from CP Neilsons(just east of the yard at mile 195.9 of the Belleville sub) to CP Oshawa(mile 175.4) around where they are planning the LW connection. CP would expect massive upgrades along that entire stretch. It's just much cheaper this way. That combined with it not being as direct/quick, pretty much makes it a non-starter.
 
Because unfortunately its the eastern equivalent to the Milton line. Aside from all the upgrades needed west of CP's yard(http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...irport-(Transport-Canada-GTAA-Proposed)/page8), the line is single tracked for 20 miles all the way from CP Neilsons(just east of the yard at mile 195.9 of the Belleville sub) to CP Oshawa(mile 175.4) around where they are planning the LW connection. CP would expect massive upgrades along that entire stretch. It's just much cheaper this way. That combined with it not being as direct/quick, pretty much makes it a non-starter.
Seems you're right, I see it on Google Satellite View...

I agree it definitely looks like the rail routing north of 401 is much simpler for the Bowmanville extension. And a bonus is that it also permits a more downtown Bowmanville station, too, rather than stations in the middle of nowhere or railyard, beyond bowmanvile's density.

Metrolinx already wrote hundreds of PDF pages on the proposed plan, and already purchased land that will REQUIRE the flyover. Metrolinx's pretty committed to the north-of-401 routing for the Bowmanville extension. The money's in the pot, which would be hard to undo.

So two poisons to choose -- a very ugly expensive "keep going" extension to the middle of nowhere, or a very ugly less-expensive extension that goes over the 401 that actually has a better routing and easier. Things become suddenly complex beyond Oshawa due to multiple railyards. I now understand why Bowmanville is going to take more than 10 years... The fact that an expensive 401 crossing becomes necessary makes it looks more difficult than all-day to Hamilton with less population (considering the rail-to-rail grade separation that might become necessary at the Hamilton Junction to enable reliable frequent 15-min Lakeshore service to Hamilton)

So we're ending up having to use a Milton-difficult segment, instead of a more-difficult-than-Milton segment, just to extend to Bowmanville!
So the expensive 401 rail overpass is still the cheaper way, as you said.
No wonder it's seems like a beyond-10-year plan.

The Metrolinx PDFs surprised me on the massive difficulty of the Bowmanville extension megaproject, because it's simply a tangle trying to extend east of Oshawa. It certainly doesn't look cancelled, just bumped further down the road, given the money is already in the pot. And negotiations with CP probably, is, delicately speaking, "delicate".

(For those not aware, vegata_skyline works as a GO train driver, and knows his stuff.... that's the horse's mouth!).
 
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Amtrak is looking at doing 200km/h diesel on the empire corridor right now are they not? I thought full HSR had been dismissed.
For now.

That said, GO RER electricifation means most modern HSR trainsets -- including Acela Express -- can at least operate go over our railroads (at lower speeds) -- if they reach our corridor (e.g. U.S. connection to GO RER Niagara electricifation).

______

Long version:

It'll take decades before we've electricified GO RER to Niagara Falls, if it ever happens, but at least all proposals are putting electricifation in the correct corridor for that -- currently anything PDF 2014 and later currently more emphasize Lewis electricifation over any electricifation to downtown Hamilton -- the "LW3" (Metrolinx's term of Lakeshore West between Aldershot and Lewis) electrification phase beyond the current 10-year Wynne announced plan. But we all know the discussions come back off and on, over the decades. By the time GO electricifies to Niagara Falls (2040? 2050?) -- or shortly after -- there might already be starting to run an Acela Express style train then. It'd become almost a simple matter of electrifying the rail bridge to get Acela taxiing into Toronto Union, if catenary is compatible.

All over the world, Europe, China, Russia, Japan, etc -- electricified commuter train routes support HSR trainsets at lower speed, so why the hell not, if there's only a couple of kilometers of unelectricified gap by then?

Main showstopper is if the catenary is too high. Height clearances do need to be adjusted to permit bilevels to be pulled by electric locomotives, that's found in many of the PDFs such as railbed sinking or overpass raising. But from what I've read Acela Express pantograph adjust to a very wide range of height, including height taller than a Bombardier BiLevel. So no problem. The highest catenary sections in Northeast corridor is high enough to allow a Bombardier Bilevel to easily clear underneath them.

I see a total of hundreds of PDF pages on Metrolinx about clearances, so they've obviously looked at the electricifation clearances all the way to Lewis, and all the way to Bowmanville. Things like lowering a railbed to clear a pre-existing highway overpass, to things like raising a pedestrian bridge a few inches to allow space for catenary wire. It's there, written somewhere in a Metrolinx PDF. Their EA will expand further on this.

So you see, GO RER electricifation automatically makes Toronto HSR trainset compatible (if not speed compatible) as the voltages and catenary height range are nowadays usually standardized, along with variable-height pantographs, thanks to EU initiatives, etc. The Acela (and many other electric high speed trains) can easily briskly taxi on GO RER electric rails (up to our own speed limits) without any further modifications to GO RER since the train is compatible, assuming Metrolinx probably wisely goes with industry standard overhead voltage. It's just the same 4ft 8½" railroad gauge and a standard high voltage overhead wire -- and Lakeshore West trackage already can support the weight of the Acela, and up to 90mph/145kph, assuming GO RER probably ends up using the same catenary voltage. We'll certainly welcome an Acela Express onto our electricified GO RER corridors, if it's arriving nearby anyway.

But that said. I'll take 200kph diesels. Especially as several sections of Lakeshore West corridor (both north and south of the lake) can realistically be upgraded (over two or three decades) to 200kph operation in a future corridor/railbed refurbishment, as ties and rails wear out, and things need reballasting, re-grading and straightening. It'll make New York by train much more attractive, especially if ever combined with any theoretical on-board customs clearance to eliminate border delay (many US governments will pass before that happens, so the dice rolls many times). Whoosh to New York City faster than by car, finally.
 
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Amtrak is looking at doing 200km/h diesel on the empire corridor right now are they not? I thought full HSR had been dismissed.

Information mentioned one way or another in Metrolinx PDFs
Also, I suspect we may end up long term with hourly service to downtown hamilton with 15 minute services to West Harbour.
Let me see, I see Metrolinx PDF text that covers at least some of the pre-requisites for RER to West Harbour...

1. Additional track from Aldershot to West Harbour
Status: Some of it funded, some of it environmental Assessment
I see text in some GO PDF's that says Metrolinx is working towards this (EA, timelines). Not If this proceeds, presumably, this is Metrolinx-funded track construction in freight-owned corridor land, with increases in Metrolinx running rights. Also, both Aldershot and West Harbour has Metrolinx track that freight trains will not go over, so we're already getting Metrolinx-running-rights track on CN-owned corridor. So there's already precedent.

2. Additional track from West Harbour to Stoney Creek & eventually Lewis
Status: Funding now announced
It's already reported some of the $150 million announced for the Stoney Creek GO station (Confederation) will fund the parallel GO track. Snippets of diagrams (including the 2011 Confederation GO station) shows this parallel trackage is south of CN track, which is quite natural given that's where the track at West Harbour is. Zero contention with freight between West Harbour and Confederation, should easily permit 90 mph operation.

3. Wider overpass over Centennial Parkway
Status: Shovels are already in the ground
This is currently already in progress as a large construction site right now, and is funded. The Centennial Parkway bridge is intentionally being built to allow both CN-dedicated and Metrolinx-dedicated trackage; shovel's already in the ground for this one, baby! The bridge I see going up, appears to allow it to match the width found in the old Confederation station GO diagrams from 2011. I suspect they will demolish the old span (after detouring the trains over the newly built first span) and rebuild a new second span, since the old span is structurally insufficient.

Information not currently found in PDFs yet
There are other speculative items, not found currently in PDFs, but are possible by precedent:

4. Possible purchase of Grimbsby sub
Status: Speculative, but realistic
CN doesn't use it as much as their other CN routes -- it is low priority. CN runs more trains over their Lakeshore running rights on Metrolinx-owned track in Lakeshore West, so it is realistically possible for Metrolinx to purchase most of the trail all the way to Welland Canal (and possibly the U.S. border too), in due time. Not a high priority right now, but this is a delicious straight-arrow corridor with enough straightness for a 300kph train. You can bet your bank that Grimsby sub will become a valuable passenger corridor 100 years from now, because of how perfectly straight it is & room for 4 tracks from Hamilton all the way to almost Niagara Falls. Eventually. But today, CN only runs very few trains, and Metrolinx can afford to wait for a long while before buying up this corridor at the best price.

5. Overhead electric wire installation allowed even if freight own the track
Status: Speculative, but realistic
Worldwide, there's precedent of freight companies letting governments and commuter companies install a wire over the rail. Diesel freight trians just run under the wire. The wire just needs to be high enough, above industry standard freight maximum height, typically the height of a double-stacked freight containers. This will probably be how high the catenary wire is: Just high enough to clear two containers stacked in a bucket car -- and high enough to clear a Bombardier BiLevel. I predict this is what will happen through Hamilton Junction, at first.

6. Possible rail-to-rail grade separation, or Metrolinx-priority crossover rights;
Status: Theoretical, not yet realistic in near-term
This will be needed to completely eliminate contention with freight trains, without needing to cross to the other side. This would occur somewhere between Aldershot and West Harbour, perhaps near the Hamilton Junction (Canada's busiest rail junction). Rail-to-rail grade separation is an expensive megaproject typically costing about a couple hundred million dollars (based on other rail-to-rail grade separations Metrolinx has already done), either via a viaduct or a tunnel, at 1-2 degree grade, which requires several kilometers of sloping to go over/under. However, if Metrolinx does the crossover somewhere along the Grimsby sub past the waterfront railyard, then they can for now possibly negotiate a reaosnable Metrolinx-priority crossover right with a SLA (Service Level Agreement) that provides profitable compensation to CN (lots of money for a very rare delay of the very rare freight train) for a cost far less than a rail-to-rail grade separation (hitting a quarter of a billion dollars). Since only a few trains run the sub per day maximum on the Grimsby sub east of the waterfront railyard, and it's possible to build Metrolinx-dedicated rail the rest of the places, the crossover (to the opposite side of freight track) is only a tiny moment of contention with freight (a minute or two) that could allow 15-minute RER service through the CN-owned freight corridor. A good SLA (Service Level Agreement) or another agreement of some kind giving sufficiently punctual crossover rights to Metrolinx trains, profitable to CN shareholders, might be all Metrolinx needs to do 15-min RER service for less than a rail-to-rail grade separation. Either way, one or the other needs to happen -- crossover agreement or rail-to-rail grade separation -- would be required, and is probably one of the showstoppers for all-day service to Hamilton, especially for 15-min instead of hourly.
_____________

Track ownership is a pesky matter. But we see definitive plans to build Metrolinx-dedicated track on CN-owned land, because of various definite mentions of extra trackage on corridor that Metrolinx does not own. So the agreement with CN shall be quite interesting -- it is possible that this is Metrolinx-funded CN-owned Metrolinx-daytime-running-rights track, as an example. I interpret it as essentially a Metrolinx leased track on CN-owned corridor land, with CN running rights of some kind like at nighttime; a quid pro quo. Presumably, this is also Metrolinx-funded track construction with increases in Metrolinx running rights (compared to sharing original CN-built track), even if the Metrolinx funded extra tracks are not build on their own land.


It appears that Metrolinx is at least planning to have at least one more Metrolinx-running-rights track all the way from Aldershot through Lewis (through West Harbour and Confederation), with the sole exception of a small contention near Hamilton Junction. That's where the GO trains have to cross over from one side to the opposite side of the track. That will be the final bottleneck to achieving all day service. Two tracks with full daytime Metrolinx-priority running rights (even if Metrolinx pays to build the track on freight corridor), will be needed to get 15-min RER service. I have no idea if any existing trackage is enough to double as "the other track", or if Metrolinx needs to build two tracks from scratch instead of one as they're looking to build between Aldershot and West Harbour in any material I could find. This will be challenging at the curve around Aldershot where it is extremely difficult to add another track, but if Metrolinx can pull this off then the catch may be a rail-to-rail grade separation to get the GO trains from one side of the freight tracks to the other. This would be a megaproject costing at least a quarter billion dollars, but if Metrolinx manages to do all the above bullets, then that would be the only thing preventing 15-min RER service to Hamilton, even if a section goes over trackage built on CN-owned land.

Presumably, it's cheaper to essentially de-facto gift a track to CN, than to buy the CN corridor. This actually happened near Kitchener, when Federal government did a 1 billion upgrade of the corridor, to speed up VIA train service. But since the freight company owns the land the new federally-funded track is built on, they're taking advantage of it to run more freight trains, and are actually slowing down VIA trains again! So Metrolinx needs to make sure the agreement includes Metrolinx-priority running rights on any surplus track CN doesn't need but doesn't mind being gifted extra track on unused CN corridor land (as CN has only 2 tracks in land that has room for 4 or 5 tracks), provided somebody else (Metrolinx) pays for upkeep and they get emergency / detour / nighttime running rights, so the extra track is useful -- and it would presumably appear that Metrolinx can pull this off for cheaper than buying the corridor outright (for now). The contract, presumably, would include a clause that it doesn't preclude future negotiations to purchase the corridor at any future mutually-agreed agrement.

The freight companies may be hard to work with, but we can be impressed that Metrolinx managed to purchase 80% of the GO network.

It may definitely not happen within 10 years, but it could realistically be within a long term master project (e.g. 25 year plan) and it's looking like all recent PDFs (2014 to date) hints at this. Master plans can often not come to fruitition as we know from all our cancelled subways and freeways, but we are now recognizing Metrolinx has been (comparatively) consistent in the last decade in progressing towards long-term goals at the moment.
 
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Not sure if it belongs in this thread (Mods, feel free to move it), but over the soggy weekend I sketched a GO train profile with the two-tone colour scheme. Not that big a fan of the two greens Metrolinx went with, so I wanted to play around with different combinations. If anyone has any requests to see color combos, it only take a few seconds to make so I'd happily draw it in. I have a few I made already, but I just want to test how the new site uploads before I post em.

GO-Train-profile_44N_green-standard.png


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GO-Train-profile_44N_slate+cream.png


GO-Train-profile_44N_cream+green-stripe.png
 

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Not sure if it belongs in this thread (Mods, feel free to move it), but over the soggy weekend I sketched a GO train profile with the two-tone colour scheme. Not that big a fan of the two greens Metrolinx went with, so I wanted to play around with different combinations. If anyone has any requests to see color combos, it only take a few seconds to make so I'd happily draw it in. I have a few I made already, but I just want to test how the new site uploads before I post em.

View attachment 48441

Meh. Just replace the apple green with the dark green, and you're good to go IMO. I'm finally at the point where I like the new livery as is.

Always interesting to see variations tho, thanks for posting!
 
So if a DRL Phase 2 is built to say Lawrence and Don Mills, how feasible is it to have the GO-RER Richmond Hill line use that tunnel to Gerrard Square before continuing along the Lakeshore/Linconville corridor to Union?
 

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