GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[wopchop]

Nope, they did not. You don't see clarity of train times.

We need targeted advertising like:
"Here's our chart of train times specific to PanAm for the football(soccer) event!"
"5:50pm express train to PanAm soccer every weekday!"
etc.

And even market-targeted pitches like:
"We have X trains in the Y hours before every single football(soccer) game"
"Stay in Hamilton after the Game. Our last train leaves Hamilton at midnight!"
etc.

Then again, they may be planning a blitz. Probably. I'm pretty curious. If they screw this up, tourists won't know these trains exist.

Why do they need to announce specific train times? That doesn't make sense. That's what the timetable is for.

If you look at the timetable, you can clearly see that there are extra trains during the games. Just look at Saturday or Sunday service on LSW.

 

[11th]

Games only last 2 weeks - 10 business days. There's the Parapan games for 5 days later on, in August - but the attendance numbers for that will be much lower.

With the paranoia to the point, that some folks have already booked vacations out of town for the 2-week Pan Am game period, then it's not like many will be changing their mind. Yes, some car drivers will ... we'll have to see how it goes. I can't imagine it will be as bad as the Gardiner construction last fall.

True the games don't last two months, but the temporary HOV lanes do. Although I'd say those are only disruptive to the highways that only have 3 lanes per direction (mostly QEW and DVP); 401, 427, and 404 should be fine.

 

[muller877]

Games only last 2 weeks - 10 business days. There's the Parapan games for 5 days later on, in August - but the attendance numbers for that will be much lower.

With the paranoia to the point, that some folks have already booked vacations out of town for the 2-week Pan Am game period, then it's not like many will be changing their mind. Yes, some car drivers will ... we'll have to see how it goes. I can't imagine it will be as bad as the Gardiner construction last fall.

With the low ticket sales for the regular games and people taking vacation I don't expect that there will be much of a worry at all.

Now instead of scaring people to stay away if they actually advertised ticket sales it would have been an improvement.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think West Harbour to Stoney Creek, a straight arrow of 9 kilometers, with parallel Metrolinx-funded track south of the original CN trackage (funded as part of the $150M budget, as I understand it), will be able to make it between West Harbour and Stoney Creek in approximately 10 minutes. Perhaps a minute less. Assuming gradual acceleration to 120kph in maybe ~3-4km (If I recall correctly, according to vegata_skyline -- he can confirm), steady coast at 120kph for 3-5km, and then slowing down in the final kilometer or two (the trains can brake from 100kph to 0 in only about half a kilometer!). They probably will keep it conservative and make that run in about 10-11 mins, given there are at-grade crossings along this corridor, but based on how GO trains perform in Lakeshore West straight arrows, they could easily do a sub-10-minute run to Stoney Creek from West Harbour if they wanted to, and there's enough acceleration room to reach 130-140kph.

I think they had to add an evening PanAm express train because the other existing trains are already full of peak-period travellers, and the corridor capacity is constrained.

So to solve that problem, add just only one attractive express train that attracts PanAm travellers away from the overcrowded Lakeshore West peak trains. I expect this train is probably going to be really busy, since soccer(football) is very popular and people are going to avoid the freeways where possible during PanAm. All the vaunted and revered football greats of this hemisphere are playing, including Argentina/Brazil/Colombia/etc, so this will probably be the most popular sport at PanAm, and the one that actually attracts a number of foreign tourists. (Hmmm... That means, don't be late for this train or you will miss your game!)

I must say the Hamilton train schedule looks somewhat complex. Two stations and several variances throughout the PanAm event.

Due to the complexity of the PanAm Hamilton GO train schedule, and also the overlap with peak period Lakeshore trains that will also stop at West Harbour (that will also double as alternate event trains), they need to market the trains carefully to avoid producing a bad impression to foreign tourists of the world's most popular sport. The exact PanAm train schedule hasn't even been officially announced or advertised, but we've sleuthed the exact timetable off the GO Transit site.

So, in your opinion, when this is over, how do you think this will influence where they put all day service? Will they move it West Harbour if people like the PanAm service? and if they do what happens to the Hamilton GO centre?

 

[nfitz]

So, in your opinion, when this is over, how do you think this will influence where they put all day service? Will they move it West Harbour if people like the PanAm service? and if they do what happens to the Hamilton GO centre?

They've already announced the post-Pan Am service. It's actually on the PDF schedule (the Pan Am services are in addition and not shown) - http://www.gotransit.com/timetables/en/PDF/Timetables/06150915/Table1.pdf

Essentially they are adding two additional express trains to Hamilton in addition to the existing four, but they'll run to West Harbour rather than Hamilton Centre.

 

[mdrejhon]

So, in your opinion, when this is over, how do you think this will influence where they put all day service? Will they move it West Harbour if people like the PanAm service? and if they do what happens to the Hamilton GO centre?

I think service increases will be incremental. I was dissapointed to see Metrolinx plans indicating that all-day hourly service won't arrive until the 2020's. And it was curious that they are making Hunter the all-day terminus, not West Harbour.

They already want to bring all-day trains to Hamilton, but one big problem is that Metrolinx owns track only to Aldershot.

There is not enough track between Aldershot and West Harbour to sustain all-day service without interference by CN.

A single CN freight train in Hamilton can delay a Lakeshore East train, sometimes by more than 15 minutes. The reason is that most Lakeshore West Aldershot trains pass through Union, becoming Lakeshore East. If they make West Harbour the new terminus, they better damn very well make sure that any delays in Hamilton because of a freight train, does not interfere with the rest of the whole Lakeshore corridor all the way to Oshawa. They have no interference at Aldershot onwards because they own the whole Lakeshore east corridor east of Aldershot (except Aldershot itself, which I understand is Metrolinx built track in CN-owned rail yard).

Metrolinx wants all-day service to Hamilton. Eventually.
But they can't afford to disrupt the whole Lakeshore.

To fix this, they need to build extra track (now funded fortunately!). It's my understanding that the upcoming track around the Lake Ontario curve, and the upcoming track to Stoney Creek, are all both funded now, thanks in part due to $150 million dollar Confederation GO station announcement (only $35M is the station).

But to do Lakeshore parity (e.g. 15-min RER) they may need to add a rail-to-rail grade separation (not funded, unfortunately) because the Metrolinx track is on the wrong side of the freight corridor at Aldershot compared to West Harbour. A ~$250 million dollar megaproject, if it proceeds.

I think West Harbour will become the new attraction instead of Aldershot for a lot of Hamiltonians, since West Harbour will have a parking garage of 300 cars within a year or so, and expandable to 600 cars. It also attracts the residential areas around the harbour area, as well as the James Street developments.

I am hoping things change and Metrolinx upscales to bring all-day electricified RER service beyond Aldershot sooner than later. Bring on the post-LRT Hamilton population boom.

Currently, because of the above, this is the best we can hope for by Year 2024:

Target Year: 2024

Target Year: 2024

All because of a pesky matter of CN rail ownership that's impossible to purchase because it's their Golden Horseshoe mainline, bringing traincars of stuff to/from the USA, our exports and imports are on those railcars, and Hamilton Junction is Canada's busiest rail junction.

We're looking at least several hundred million dollars to solve a freight separation problem, to get Lakeshore parity all the way to Hamilton. Instead, we're going for the compromise of parallel Metrolinx-funded trackage built on CN-owned (West Harbour) or CP-owned corridor (Hamilton Downtown), and gaining Metrolinx-priority running rights, except where GO trains have to cross the CN/CP mainline tracks. That showstopper (having to stop for freight before crossing the freight tracks on one of Canada's busiest freight lines) in itself, prevents trusting Hamilton departures from interfering with reliable Oshawa arrival times. Slow lumbering 100-car freight train delaying a GO train by 20 minutes, have happened in the past. Especially if the GOtrain was a little late in departing, and crashed headlong into CN/CP freight schedule, or the CN/CP freight train was late and clashed with an on-schedule GO train.

This is why the Liberal promise of all-day Hamilton GO service by 2015 is broken.

I can understand the technical details why, but the government didn't quite realize how outlandish this original promise was, without a near-GTS-league style megaproject.

Incrementally, I expect more Lakeshore West trains to go through West Harbour over time, and realistically see all-day service every 2-3 hours by 2019, when Stoney Creek (Confederation GO) station is in full service -- and all the necessary extra track is built. The Lewis trainyard (overnight train parking near Stoney Creek) can be expanded to be up to 8 GO trains, and can sustain 30-min all day service if the freight contention problem is solved, possibly via a rail-to-rail grade separation during a future budget announcement. Then nothing stops us getting electric RER trains to downtown Hamilton!

 

[nfitz]

Currently, because of the above, this is the best we can hope for by Year 2024:

It's still a work in progress though. For example, that "best we can hope for until 2024" document - only a few weeks old - includes no service to Centennial GO (or Confederation GO ... or whatever they call it). I wouldn't be surprised if the plans change a few more times.

Looking at the Kitchener line for example, the same graphic shows by 2024, there there won't be full-day or reverse-peak service on the Kitchener line any further than Bramalea. From Brampton to Kitchener will only get peak service inbound in the AM and outbound at PM. In 2024! Let's see how long before that plan changes ... again.

 

[mdrejhon]

This be true. Some things on GO did get accelerated ahead of time (rarely). And electrification is an initiative that's being accelerated a bit due to increases in funding.

P.S. We already have a Centennial GO station elsewhere in the GO network. So the Stoney Creek station will be called a different name, currently named as Confederation GO station in other documents.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They've already announced the post-Pan Am service. It's actually on the PDF schedule (the Pan Am services are in addition and not shown) - http://www.gotransit.com/timetables/en/PDF/Timetables/06150915/Table1.pdf

Essentially they are adding two additional express trains to Hamilton in addition to the existing four, but they'll run to West Harbour rather than Hamilton Centre.

Thanks nfitz. I will try to get out there to see the new station.

I think service increases will be incremental. I was dissapointed to see Metrolinx plans indicating that all-day hourly service won't arrive until the 2020's. And it was curious that they are making Hunter the all-day terminus, not West Harbour.

They already want to bring all-day trains to Hamilton, but one big problem is that Metrolinx owns track only to Aldershot.

There is not enough track between Aldershot and West Harbour to sustain all-day service without interference by CN.

A single CN freight train in Hamilton can delay a Lakeshore East train, sometimes by more than 15 minutes. The reason is that most Lakeshore West Aldershot trains pass through Union, becoming Lakeshore East. If they make West Harbour the new terminus, they better damn very well make sure that any delays in Hamilton because of a freight train, does not interfere with the rest of the whole Lakeshore corridor all the way to Oshawa. They have no interference at Aldershot onwards because they own the whole Lakeshore east corridor east of Aldershot (except Aldershot itself, which I understand is Metrolinx built track in CN-owned rail yard).

Metrolinx wants all-day service to Hamilton. Eventually.
But they can't afford to disrupt the whole Lakeshore.

To fix this, they need to build extra track (now funded fortunately!). It's my understanding that the upcoming track around the Lake Ontario curve, and the upcoming track to Stoney Creek, are all both funded now, thanks in part due to $150 million dollar Confederation GO station announcement (only $35M is the station).

But to do Lakeshore parity (e.g. 15-min RER) they may need to add a rail-to-rail grade separation (not funded, unfortunately) because the Metrolinx track is on the wrong side of the freight corridor at Aldershot compared to West Harbour. A ~$250 million dollar megaproject, if it proceeds.

I think West Harbour will become the new attraction instead of Aldershot for a lot of Hamiltonians, since West Harbour will have a parking garage of 300 cars within a year or so, and expandable to 600 cars. It also attracts the residential areas around the harbour area, as well as the James Street developments.

I am hoping things change and Metrolinx upscales to bring all-day electricified RER service beyond Aldershot sooner than later. Bring on the post-LRT Hamilton population boom.

Currently, because of the above, this is the best we can hope for by Year 2024:

Target Year: 2024
View attachment 48199
Target Year: 2024

All because of a pesky matter of CN rail ownership that's impossible to purchase because it's their Golden Horseshoe mainline, bringing traincars of stuff to/from the USA, our exports and imports are on those railcars, and Hamilton Junction is Canada's busiest rail junction.

We're looking at least several hundred million dollars to solve a freight separation problem, to get Lakeshore parity all the way to Hamilton. Instead, we're going for the compromise of parallel Metrolinx-funded trackage built on CN-owned (West Harbour) or CP-owned corridor (Hamilton Downtown), and gaining Metrolinx-priority running rights, except where GO trains have to cross the CN/CP mainline tracks. That showstopper (having to stop for freight before crossing the freight tracks on one of Canada's busiest freight lines) in itself, prevents trusting Hamilton departures from interfering with reliable Oshawa arrival times. Slow lumbering 100-car freight train delaying a GO train by 20 minutes, have happened in the past. Especially if the GOtrain was a little late in departing, and crashed headlong into CN/CP freight schedule, or the CN/CP freight train was late and clashed with an on-schedule GO train.

This is why the Liberal promise of all-day Hamilton GO service by 2015 is broken.

I can understand the technical details why, but the government didn't quite realize how outlandish this original promise was, without a near-GTS-league style megaproject.

Incrementally, I expect more Lakeshore West trains to go through West Harbour over time, and realistically see all-day service every 2-3 hours by 2019, when Stoney Creek (Confederation GO) station is in full service -- and all the necessary extra track is built. The Lewis trainyard (overnight train parking near Stoney Creek) can be expanded to be up to 8 GO trains, and can sustain 30-min all day service if the freight contention problem is solved, possibly via a rail-to-rail grade separation during a future budget announcement. Then nothing stops us getting electric RER trains to downtown Hamilton!

Dissapointing to hear. IMO I think they could accelerate the time line. Build track at this point, when it's less then 10 km is not a lot.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It's still a work in progress though. For example, that "best we can hope for until 2024" document - only a few weeks old - includes no service to Centennial GO (or Confederation GO ... or whatever they call it). I wouldn't be surprised if the plans change a few more times.

Looking at the Kitchener line for example, the same graphic shows by 2024, there there won't be full-day or reverse-peak service on the Kitchener line any further than Bramalea. From Brampton to Kitchener will only get peak service inbound in the AM and outbound at PM. In 2024! Let's see how long before that plan changes ... again.

This be true. Some things on GO did get accelerated ahead of time (rarely). And electrification is an initiative that's being accelerated a bit due to increases in funding.

P.S. We already have a Centennial GO station elsewhere in the GO network. So the Stoney Creek station will be called a different name, currently named as Confederation GO station in other documents.

Well lets hope so. I mean it should not take 9 years to increase service.

 

[dowlingm]

Whatever the post Confed GO track layout, if Amtrak Maple Leaf-VIA 97/98 cannot call at West Harbour in addition to Niagara GO services then it should be declared the feast of Slapsgiving at Metrolinx HQ. Ideally the existing southern main would have a high floor platform stuck on it but given how much would have to be done for CN to make that happen for what is currently 1tpd I guess that's a bit much to ask.

 

[mdrejhon]

The Amtrak train can also serve low floor platforms, so could technically stop at the platform once the Stoney Creek extension is done in 2017. Currently, the James North tracks will deadend towards the east, and won't yet be able to service through trains until the $150M Stoney Creek GO extension project. Then 2017+, post Confederation GO, it becomes possible for both VIA and Amtrak to stop at West Harbour (James North).

 

[urbanfan89]

Currently the Midtown CP line cannot be used for GO Transit operations, as it remains CP Rail's only link between western Canada and the east.

In order to resolve this I think Metrolinx should build a new freight-only line parallel to the 407 from Bramalea to Burlington. It purchases ownership of the CN Halton and York Subs line from Bramalea to Pickering, and all long-haul CN and CP freight trains will be routed through the new freight-only GTA Bypass. This gives Metrolinx a (nearly) completely free hand to increase service on the Milton and Kitchener lines, and use the Midtown CP line.

In the long term, perhaps Metrolinx should purchase the CN Grimsby Sub outright and fund upgrades to the CP Hamilton Sub to divert all long-haul CN and CP trains to/from the US via the Mid-Peninsula (a new curve east of Welland would allow CN to maintain its link to Niagara Falls). If the railways demand a shutdown of the Hunter Street Hamilton station, that is a small price to pay.

This way, Metrolinx will have full control of (almost) its entire network while giving freight trains ample room for manoever. In fact, CN and CP may be happy to be diverted away from dense urban areas.

 

[mdrejhon]

The whole Grimsby sub has room for four tracks (though many bridges will need to be upgraded) all the way from Hamilton to Wellamd canal, even though only two is in use for most of it. I suspect it would be cheaper to have shared corridor ownership between CN and Metrolinx, wih dedicated tracks for each.

 

[crs1026]

Currently the Midtown CP line cannot be used for GO Transit operations, as it remains CP Rail's only link between western Canada and the east.

In order to resolve this I think Metrolinx should build a new freight-only line parallel to the 407 from Bramalea to Burlington.

The idea of a freight bypass from Milton over to the east end has been kicked around since the 1980's. I believe the corridor can be found in various planning documents dealing with land use.

The question is, what would it take for the railways to buy in. The idea of CN and CP cooperating between themselves is problemmatic even without considering Metrolinx - railways have a fairly cutthroat attitude to each other, even when there is obvious win-win. Railroaders just seem to prefer win-lose. (someone could do a good MBA thesis on this as a case study in the folly of zero-sum negotiation). There would be some legitimate concerns about how to value each railroad's contribution to capital for the zone, and how to 'share' the capacity equitably.

Then there's the question of valuing whatever Metrolinx would buy. IIRC the 80-s era plans were predicated on tearing up the North Toronto Sub and developing its real estate. This valued the land at full market value (which is what made the cost of the bypass seem easy to handle). I suspect CP would still take this position in negotiation and/or arbitration. They might not win....but I wonder if Metrolinx (us taxpayers, that is) could afford whatever price tag is deemed 'fair'.

In any event, the exercise would be high stakes and the railways would have the negotiating advantage, in that by hanging tough they would be counting on Metrolinx to blink first, ie pay extra just to get the thing under way. (I wonder if there is something the railways want badly enough to make them eager to sign)

Lastly, don't discount the NIMBY factor from residents along the Halton and York Sub - who will think (quite incorrectly) that they were there first and the freight trains should go away altogether.

Having said all of that, it's an idea whose time may come. CP is rumoured to want to close its Agincourt and Lambton yards altogether, in favour of a block swapping yard further east. This would make a new route quite practical. Putting those lands up for development would bring a huge chunk of change. I lament that there is no industry (and therefore no employment) left in the city that needs to be served by freight railways....but that's not likely to return, I guess.

- Paul