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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

Looks like GO is preparing to buy the portion of the Lakeshore West corridor in Toronto - there's a tender for a market value estimate on their website for the Yonge St to 29th St segment (almost to Long Branch).

Awesome but odd. Why Long Branch? It's not like any line will terminate there or like CN would be more willing to sell. It's a pretty arbitrary point. Pickering to Burlington makes the most sense because it's the area bypassed by the Halton/York subs. Obviously that's a bigger investment.

I am for transit, but I am against excessively expensive transit "improvements" that will have low ridership even during rush hour. The cost of a GO train to Peterborough (population 74898) could instead fund much higher-priority projects like GO train service to Waterloo region (population 506800) and Niagara Region (population 427421) and frequent all-day service on existing GO lines.

Yeah, but it doesn't work that way. You said yourself that it was a pork motivated project. It's not like the deferral of this project magically means that Flaherty will announce some other project costing the same amount of money that is deemed preferable. I'd obviously benefit a great deal from new train service to Waterloo Region and I'd probably never ride the train to Peterborough. I'd like to see both services built. If Peterborough gets built before Waterloo, that's just the way it goes.

unimaginative, perhaps?

Omigod! You're so clever!
 
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I hope commuter service to Peterborough doesn't launch a developers green-belt-leaping free for all. I don't envision the urban planning and development capabilites of the city to be that advanced and the temptation to cash in by developing vast swaths of previously low demand land is a huge. Building more low cost homes is fine, but with dirt cheap land and little controls, those developments could be the worst kind of sprawl.

I also worry about this for Niagara, especially between Hamilton and St. Catharines. There are some better controls there, but in a bad economy, selling a vineyard or fruit tree feild to a developer for quick cash is a popular strategy. It's already happened too many times and it's irreversable. See recent growth in Grimsby for an example.
 
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Awesome but odd. Why Long Branch? It's not like any line will terminate there or like CN would be more willing to sell. It's a pretty arbitrary point.

That is where the branch to the Canpa Subdivision to the CP line breaks off and that passes a major intermodal terminal on North Queen St. Also at the same point a track breaks off the mainline into the south side of the Mimico Yard which CN might be keeping.
 
Yeah, but it doesn't work that way. You said yourself that it was a pork motivated project. It's not like the deferral of this project magically means that Flaherty will announce some other project costing the same amount of money that is deemed preferable. I'd obviously benefit a great deal from new train service to Waterloo Region and I'd probably never ride the train to Peterborough. I'd like to see both services built. If Peterborough gets built before Waterloo, that's just the way it goes.

Yeah but even if Flaherty does scrounge some money that otherwise wouldn't have gone to transit for the capital cost, GO is still saddled with the large operational cost of running mostly empty trains to Peterborough and back.
 
I hope commuter service to Peterborough doesn't launch a developers green-belt-leaping free for all. I don't envision the urban planning and development capabilites of the city to be that advanced and the temptation to cash in by developing vast swaths of previously low demand land is a huge. Building more low cost homes is fine, but with dirt cheap land and little controls, those developments could be the worst kind of sprawl.

I also worry about this for Niagara, especially between Hamilton and St. Catharines. There are some better controls there, but in a bad economy, selling a vineyard or fruit tree feild to a developer for quick cash is a popular strategy. It's already happened too many times and it's irreversable. See recent growth in Grimsby for an example.

In the case of the fruit tree lands in Niagara, pretty much everything unbuilt on got Greenbelted, so it would realistically take a pretty brazen Conservative majority in Queens Park to undo protections and make those lands paveable.

The local pols in Grimsby and St. Kitts are still hopping mad about this, actually. Apparently by forcing them to develop within their existing urban boundaries they will be economically crippled. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, at the time he announced he was "delivering" his Peterborough toy train, Del Mastro actually went out of his way to brag in the papers about how the line would prompt Peterborough to "grow" by something like 100,000 people because it was unencumbered by any of that Greenbelt nonsense. Leaving aside his rather dodgy track record when it comes to math, let this be proof positive of the sort of genius you get when you literally make a used-car dealer your MP.
 
In the case of the fruit tree lands in Niagara, pretty much everything unbuilt on got Greenbelted, so it would realistically take a pretty brazen Conservative majority in Queens Park to undo protections and make those lands paveable..
Yet somehow, the area around Kitchener-Waterloo, Barrie and Peterborough doesn't have shred of greenbelt around it! :eek:

The local pols in Grimsby and St. Kitts are still hopping mad about this, actually. Apparently by forcing them to develop within their existing urban boundaries they will be economically crippled. :rolleyes:
This is one of the things that makes me want the Province to step up and get a real growth plan going. Something that plans for the GGH to be one linked urban mass. I know they've got places to grow and all that stuff, but there's still so much they could do to keep all the different cities in check, making sure their economies mesh together for maximum efficiency. For instance, St. Catherines could be a node for the entire Niagara region, allowing other cities/towns to grow based on it's economic development. This, of course would be linked by a quick and frequent Go train to Hamilton, Mississauga and Toronto, networking all these cities together.

Incidentally, at the time he announced he was "delivering" his Peterborough toy train, Del Mastro actually went out of his way to brag in the papers about how the line would prompt Peterborough to "grow" by something like 100,000 people because it was unencumbered by any of that Greenbelt nonsense. Leaving aside his rather dodgy track record when it comes to math, let this be proof positive of the sort of genius you get when you literally make a used-car dealer your MP.
Yeah, that's bad. Of course, they could get 100,000 people going into high density condos with at least a sizeable business core, but I highly doubt it.
 
I'll probably start a separate thread on this.

But I think its important to address those Greenbelt issues.

The McGuinty government (or any successor) needs to feel pressure to enlarge the Greenbelt, particularly around Waterloo, Guelph and the 400 Corridor up to Lake Simcoe.

They publicly stated previously they would add to the Greenbelt where local pols supported it (not enough, but a start) but despite official requests from Guelph and Waterloo, I am not aware of any enlargement to date.

I also think the Places to Grow legislation is inadequate, in that the intensification target of only 40% is very sprawl friendly, Oregon managed 70%, that's the least we should do here.

There also need to be clearer directives that new development must be transit, walking and cycling friendly, from rear-laneway subdivisions, and higher densities to not allowing big box power centers to face away from streets.

Finally, I'll throw out a link for those interested in the issue.

This is for the Greenbelt Alliance, a group of ENGOs dedicated to growing Ontario's Greenbelt. You can learn about that campaign there.

http://greenbeltalliance.ca/
 
Yet somehow, the area around Kitchener-Waterloo, Barrie and Peterborough doesn't have shred of greenbelt around it! :eek:
As far as regional governments go, Waterloo "gets it," generally speaking. It has voluntarily established a Greenbeltish area of its own and there've been rumblings that they will ask for it to be added to the Greenbelt proper.

Peterborough didn't get Greenbelted precisely because everybody assumed it was too far from Toronto to be at risk of commuterfying out of control. Even if they sink 100s of millions into the pork barrel express, it'll still be a 2 hr+ ride. That'll convince some crazed supercommuters to move to a new ticky-tacky box in Peterborough, but I'm not too sure if there'll be that many of them. In any event, there are two outcomes: Peterborough doesn't become a commuter hub and the train is proven a ridiculous white elephant, or the train does attract a near-cost-recovery ridership, and we have a new spawlburb on our hands. Lose-lose.


Barrie and Simcoe County have been a bit of a clusterfark in general. The political culture is particularly sprawl happy and this makes for abortions of public policy like the current draft Simcoe Official plan, which asks for a new 400-series highway around Barrie where even the MTO's in-house wet dream division has never contemplated one before.

This is one of the things that makes me want the Province to step up and get a real growth plan going. Something that plans for the GGH to be one linked urban mass. I know they've got places to grow and all that stuff, but there's still so much they could do to keep all the different cities in check, making sure their economies mesh together for maximum efficiency.
That's emphatically what Places to Grow is. Bear in mind that the initial document was just the first stage of a lengthy process. The second stage involves all the municipal official plans being beaten into compliance, which is where we're at right now.
 
That is where the branch to the Canpa Subdivision to the CP line breaks off and that passes a major intermodal terminal on North Queen St. Also at the same point a track breaks off the mainline into the south side of the Mimico Yard which CN might be keeping.

Yeah, seconding this.... in railgeekspeak, they're looking to buy from the west end of USRC to Canpa Junction.

I think if you dig back a month or two, you'll see we actually talked about just this matter, and what-sized bites of track GO/Metrolinx was in a position to be swallowing at time.

Canpa Junction is a sensible-enough transfer point for ownership: it ensures that GO has full control over all train movements between Willowbrook and Union, lets CN retain ownership of most of the trackage which has industrial spurs leading off of it (one notable exception being Mr. Christie, who will now need to ask GO nicely to let his good cookies roll out via their tracks when they're not using them), and allows the occasional CN-to-CP (and vice versa) freight movement to occur along the CP Canpa subdivision without entangling a third actor in the horse-trading.

GO buying this would also mark a critical "snip" moment for CN's history in Toronto. While GO, via the TTR, has owned the Union Station Rail Corridor for some time, the Union bypass tracks have meant that CN's never had to worry about being encumbered when running through the city from their Oakville sub in the west, through GO's central portion of trackage from Bathurst to Cherry, and then onwards onto their Kingston sub in the east.

This exchange, however, will mean that CN loses their veto position on the corridor, and we'll go from a system where dozens of daily GO trips are "tenants" and two or so CN freight runs are "landlords" to the reverse. While I have no doubt that, as part of the fine print in any deal, GO will be obliged to be more than generous in allowing CN to continue making guest jogs across town along the tracks, it marks a legal point of no return. Indeed, assuming CN is okay with making a deal, it also erases any further psychological obstacle to them selling the Bala sub south of Doncaster Junction or parts of the Kingston sub---definitely any of it west of Scarborough Junction, and most likely any of it west of Durham Junction.
 
...one notable exception being Mr. Christie, who will now need to ask GO nicely to let his good cookies roll out via their tracks when they're not using them...
Alas, Mr. Christie's Spur no longer exists. The track is taken up, the bridge into the second floor of the bakery building is partially dismantled, and there's a continuous fence across the old trackbed. Pity. I always liked that one.
 
Barrie and Simcoe County have been a bit of a clusterfark in general. The political culture is particularly sprawl happy and this makes for abortions of public policy like the current draft Simcoe Official plan, which asks for a new 400-series highway around Barrie where even the MTO's in-house wet dream division has never contemplated one be

Oddly enough I had been thinking about Barrie becoming the hub of the Simcoe/Gerogian/Muskoka region. If that were to happen I could certainly envision a new highway running roughly E-W through Barrie (to say), and an international airport being built there.

I had been thinking that the Pickering plan was decades old and that maybe the demographic of the region has changed such that now the need might be further North of the region rather than to the east.

Ducks!!!

***Edit***

Barrie was no more than a little town of under 40 000 people. In 30 years they might be pushing 500 000 or even 750 000. The region around it might reach well over 1 million.
 
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GO looks at new Niagara Rail Service Expansion

TORONTO, Nov. 17, 2009 /CNW/ - GO Transit is set to start an environmental assessment (EA) that will look at what infrastructure upgrades would be required to expand rail service to the Niagara Peninsula including prospective building sites for new rail stations and potential improvements to the existing rail line. The EA begins this week, with completion scheduled for summer 2010.

Following the EA and subsequent public review period, there will be an assessment to determine whether a business case exists for this service.

"The potential service expansion along the Niagara corridor will depend on various factors such as fleet availability, capital and operating funds and supportive business partnerships with the railways," said Gary McNeil, GO Transit's Managing Director. The Niagara rail line service expansion is outlined in GO Transit's Strategic Plan: GO 2020, and is part of GO's vision for better, expanded service for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. For more information, visit the Publications page at gotransit.com.

A successful weekend excursion train service was offered this summer linking Niagara Falls and Toronto, and ran between Toronto's Union Station, Port Credit GO Station, Oakville GO Station, Burlington GO Station, St. Catharines VIA Rail Station and Niagara Falls VIA Station.

GO introduced year-round weekday and weekend bus service to Niagara Falls on September 5 between Niagara Falls VIA Rail station and Burlington GO Station with stops in Stoney Creek, Grimsby, and St. Catharines. This service connects with GO's Lakeshore west train service. GO encourages travelers to take the Niagara Falls bus service as an alternative to driving to this popular destination area.

For specific train and bus schedule information, the public can call 416.869.3200, 1.888.GET ON GO (438.6646), or 1.800.387.3652 TTY, or visit gotransit.com.

GO Transit is the Province of Ontario's interregional public transit system linking Toronto with the surrounding regions of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). GO carries nearly 55 million passengers a year in an extensive network of train and bus services that spans over 10,000 square kilometres. GO Transit is a division of Metrolinx, an agency of the Province of Ontario.

Disponible en français

For further information: Media enquiries - Vanessa Thomas, (416) 869-3600 ext. 5264, or Andrea Gusen, (416) 869-3600 ext. 5322
 
Go Transit Niagara Expansion: Good News!

WW: Good news concerning expansion of GO Rail service to the Niagara Peninsula-as noticed this year this has the potential to become very successful
for both visitors and commuters on the Niagara Peninsula.
I will be one of the people watching this and hope it will become permanent.
LI MIKE
 
It appears that GO is only buying the portion up to Campa mile 8.4 of the Oakville sub because beyond Campa the Oakville sub is joint section trackage between CN and CP which evidently complicates the ownership and transfer of the right of way as negotiations would have to involve all parties.

Also, the portion to Willowbrook is currently by far the busiest section of tracks for GO movements because of equipment movements to the yard (to be rivaled and exceeded in the future by movements along the Weston/Galt/Newmarket lines i.e the 400 trains per day corridor). Based on the pay structure – the Haulage fees that GO pays CN for using its tracks, this is the most expensive piece of track on a per mile basis in terms of the ‘rent’ GO has to pay for using the tracks. So it only makes perfect sense for GO to at least buy the track which is costing them the most to run over.
 

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