GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[steveintoronto]

Mayor Guthrie calls on Provincial Government to commit to high speed rail and two-way all-day GO Transit

A letter was sent to the Minister of Transportation
0
about 8 hours ago by: Phi Doan

The Mayor of Guelph Cam Guthrie tweeted out a picture of the letter he sent to the New Minister of Transportation.

The letter is asking for commitment from the provincial government to support high speed rail and two-way all-day GO Train service to his city.


Guthrie had held back on the writing the letter until after the new government was elected.



View image on Twitter



Mayor Cam Guthrie@CamGuthrie
https://twitter.com/CamGuthrie/status/1024015508876734470

My first letter I’m sending to our new Minister of Transportation @JYakabuskiMPP in the Provincial Government regarding the importance of #TwoWayAllDayGO and #HighSpeedRail to #Guelph and our #InnovationCorridor partners! #EconomicDevelopment #LessGridlock#CleanerEnvironment

3:34 PM - Jul 30, 2018


Guthrie says he is looking for assurance that these two projects are still a priority,

"It would be appreciative to know that we have the commitment for that from the current government because their is still local planning and local infrastructure requirement that each one our cities require to get for these commitments if there coming." Said Guthrie.

Guthrie is among several local mayors who support high speed rail and two way all day GO Service.

https://www.guelphtoday.com/local-n...d-rail-and-two-way-all-day-go-transit-1002733

 

[mdrejhon]

I don't think it really got to that level of planning, but they envisioned GO ALRT going to specific "hubs", North York Centre, Scarborough Town Centre, etc. Those would not have much parking.

I think it would have ended up a mix not too different from Calgary C-Train.

C-Train is much lighter train than both GO ALRT and GO BiLevels.
Some stations are transit malls (through downtown), some are transit hubs, and some are massive garages (bigger than many GO garages).

And C-Train's free downtown section where people can hop on-off at will anytime for free at the on-street transit mall stations -- using it like a peoplemover. Imagine King Street with a complete car ban and adding high level platforms for 4-coach chained trams that go through level intersections with automatic traffic priority -- that's what Calgary C-Train sorta looks like through downtown.

Much more integrated than even the most integrated GO stations on GO network.

On the C-Train, the contrast is quite striking -- they've got some GO-like garage megastations and some transit-mall stations on the Calgary C-Train.

There's a total of 13,500 C-Train parking spaces -- not as many as GO's 65,000 -- but a massive number for an LRT.

I imagine GO ALRT would have ended up as roughly similar contrasty-station style as the Calgary C-Train -- a mix of very urban stations and some very massive park-n-ride stations.

Here's the contrast:

1. Transit mall station
(Credit: Calgary Home Boys)

2. Low-density suburban Calgary C-Train station
Looks just like suburban GO stations. (credit: Google)

3. Mid-density suburban Calgary C-Train station
(credit: Google)

Yeah, the same train stops at all of these styles of stations. Quite the contrast!

I suspect (roughly), there would have been a roughly similar spread with GO ALRT, a big mix of very urban stations and very suburban stations. A spread much bigger than GO.

 

[innsertnamehere]

A much lighter train than both GO ALRT and GO BiLevels -- an LRT train called the Calgary C-Train -- have select stations that are massive park-n-ride garages (bigger than many GO garages) -- while others are quite the transit oriented hubs.

There's a total of 13,500 C-Train parking spaces - not as many as GO's 65,000 - but a massive number for an LRT.

I imagine GO ALRT would have been roughly similar -- a mix of urban stations and some massive park-n-rides.

Which reflects Calgary's intense car culture. The LRT is wildly popular - but largely because Calgary has some of the most expensive parking costs on the continent for downtown monthly parking (significantly more than Toronto), where a significant portion of the cities employment is. The city otherwise is extremely dependent on cars for almost all aspects of life.. The LRT system is essentially commuter rail to access downtown in order to circumvent the crazy downtown parking costs.

 

[mdrejhon]

Which reflects Calgary's intense car culture. The LRT is wildly popular - but largely because Calgary has some of the most expensive parking costs on the continent for downtown monthly parking (significantly more than Toronto), where a significant portion of the cities employment is. The city otherwise is extremely dependent on cars for almost all aspects of life.. The LRT system is essentially commuter rail to access downtown in order to circumvent the crazy downtown parking costs.

Indeed. It would probably have been (roughly) the same for ALRT.

Just inserted photos above.

Indeed, wildly popular, the C-Train (with less network-wide trackage than Lakeshore West GO) moves an incredible 300,000 persons per day for a city of only ~1.2 million.

The two major C-Train routes merge into one pinchpoint corridor through Calgary's downtown -- imagine a Toronto Union Station with only 2 tracks serving ultrafrequent 4-coach single deck trains.

That's more than the daily ridership of the entire GO network combined -- including GO Buses (275,000/day)!

We've got a long way to go -- and plenty of room for GO to be able to expand ridership on their now-owned trackage -- even Ford needs GO RER

 

[ShonTron]

Which reflects Calgary's intense car culture. The LRT is wildly popular - but largely because Calgary has some of the most expensive parking costs on the continent for downtown monthly parking (significantly more than Toronto), where a significant portion of the cities employment is. The city otherwise is extremely dependent on cars for almost all aspects of life.. The LRT system is essentially commuter rail to access downtown in order to circumvent the crazy downtown parking costs.

Despite the love of LRT, Calgary's bus system isn't that great. The so-called "BRT" routes are just limited-stop routes without any BRT measures that mostly run at limited hours. It's like Ottawa - outside the rapid transit corridors (be it LRT or the Transitway) the bus service can be spotty, especially outside the most central neighbourhoods.

The bus-only roads (with deep traps to keep out private cars) are more meant to keep traffic out of subdivisions than provide transit priority. But at least they're a recognition that buses need something to help connect suburban areas without navigating the worst of suburban street networks.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Indeed. It would probably have been (roughly) the same for ALRT.

Just inserted photos above.

Indeed, wildly popular, the C-Train (with less network-wide trackage than Lakeshore West GO) moves an incredible 300,000 persons per day for a city of only ~1.2 million.

That's more than the daily ridership of the entire GO network combined -- including GO Buses (275,000/day)!

We've got a long way to go -- and plenty of room for GO to be able to expand ridership on their now-owned trackage -- even Ford needs GO RER

It may seem impressive, but Calgary has only a 14.4% transit modal share. The GTA has a 24.3% modal share by comparison for transit. Of the "big 6" cities in Canada, Calgary and Edmonton are significantly behind the next lowest, Ottawa at 18.3% (Edmonton is 11.3%)

 

[mdrejhon]

True, though that's a city of mere 1.2 million and on a mere one mode (and of that, a mere single corridor), that's still downright impressive by North American standards. Car-dependency nonwithstanding, and some of those stations are now gradually evolving into hubs now.

I also say this in perspective in that our GO network's capacity is very underutilized, and the importance of keeping electrification since it one of the many pre-requisites to doubling total daily ridership of GO.

 

[innsertnamehere]

True, though that's a city of mere 1.2 million and on a mere one mode (and of that, a mere single corridor), that's still downright impressive by North American standards. Car-dependency nonwithstanding, and some of those stations are now gradually evolving into hubs now.

I also say this in perspective in that our GO network's capacity is very underutilized, and the importance of keeping electrification since it one of the many pre-requisites to doubling total daily ridership of GO.

Ottawa is more so the example of what to expect for a mid-sized city for transit in Canada if you ask me. Ottawa performs at a much higher level with no rapid transit (well, the O-Train, but that is a tiny percentage of trips) and a much more dispersed employment shed. It also boasts significantly higher active transportation modal shares., all in a city that straddles a provincial boundary making transit service far more difficult and with a lower overall population.

Calgary has what may seem like a successful transit system on the surface, but underneath is a system that essentially services downtown bound commuter trips only. There are very, very few people in Calgary who live car-free, far fewer than you would see elsewhere in Canada.

It's built form outside of the immediate downtown is also unusually hostile to pedestrains. It is extremely difficult to get around Calgary's suburbs without a car (and most of the city is the suburbs), way more so than any Ontario, BC, or QC city.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Despite the love of LRT, Calgary's bus system isn't that great. The so-called "BRT" routes are just limited-stop routes without any BRT measures that mostly run at limited hours. It's like Ottawa - outside the rapid transit corridors (be it LRT or the Transitway) the bus service can be spotty, especially outside the most central neighbourhoods.

The bus-only roads (with deep traps to keep out private cars) are more meant to keep traffic out of subdivisions than provide transit priority. But at least they're a recognition that buses need something to help connect suburban areas without navigating the worst of suburban street networks.

Yeah, Calgary has only one bus route with all day, 7 day per week frequent service, and most of the suburban bus routes are useless for anything other than getting to an LRT station. Edmonton actually has a much better high frequency bus grid.

 

[mdrejhon]

My hometown Ottawa!

One of the best bus systems in Canada, in my opinion, having built the world's first BRT system in 1973 that later expanded to the Transitway in the early 80s.

(Nonwithstanding the massive-but-temporary pain of shutting down Transitway during LRT construction)

It's built form outside of the immediate downtown is also unusually hostile to pedestrains. It is extremely difficult to get around Calgary's suburbs without a car (and most of the city is the suburbs), way more so than any Ontario, BC, or QC city.

I'll have to grant that too. Ottawa's easier to go car-free in if you're not in Kanata or Orleans. Even in 1980s there was much more built cycle infrastructure (Rideau River, Rideau Canal, Ottawa River, etc) that -- while recreational -- actually provided transportation options from many suburbs to downtown. And the bus system of Ottawa was far ahead of its time when I grew up in Ottawa. From the electronic next-bus-arrival TV screens in 1983 at Transitway stations, to the very modern, highly visible route-number signage (much easier to read than Toronto's and Hamilton's), and the studious presence of route maps at every bus shelters, very well thought-out in the info-providing department.

On that compliment -- let's briefly look at an OC Transpo bus stop:

Even the most rural bus stop pole, has digits roughly this big. On a guaranteed-minimum quarter-square-meter "white metal flag".

Every single bus stop everywhere metro-Ottawa-region-wide. Including the unsheltered ones. Before crossing the street to reach your stop, you actually don't have to squint to know if your route number services your stop.

And you don't have to play "Where's Waldo" on identifying the location of a bus stop. I can see the familiar metal flags (and sometimes read them) from one bus stop down the road away from them!

This has been the case since either the 70s or the early 80s (forget when these metal flags got introduced; but the shape and whitespace between route numbers remain mostly unchanged). Imperfections of OC Transpo aside, the love of route-number visibility protocol in Ottawa is first-class par excellence compared to any Canadian city I've been to thus far. I longingly stare at the HSR bus stop with a piddly 10 centimeter-wide signage not visible afar -- with no route number on them -- and retrospectively, admire Ottawa's amazing visibility of bus stop signs.

Roadside GO bus stops and TTC/HSR/etc bus stops should look to Ottawa as a role model for bus stop route-number visibility.

 

[Kitsune]

Calgary is building another LRT running from Centre Ave in the north to city's SE.... interesting it'll be LFLRV and be built like Eglinton is - the centre section will run in an underground tunnel... that includes going under the Bow River. Also, there are plans to shift the NW-SW line to run under 8th ave...but that has been planned since the 80s. There is tunnel and a station already built under Calgary City Hall, and there are plans to build an Airport spur.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Calgary is about to switch over to a new network for much of the city after spending $300 million on new BRT corridors (everything on this map except for the Red and Blue). Outside of a few sections (8 km of the purple line, and 2 km of the teal line) it has involved mostly building slip lanes as Calgary's roads aren't congested. This is the new higher order network that 3/4s of routes are being changed to better align with:

 

[Darwinkgo]

Yeah, fortunately they are opening at the beginning of a 4 year budget cycle, and frequency will hopefully be ramped up by next summer as the new budget begins. Calgary Transit had to cover the service hours for the BRT routes from within their existing budget for now.

 

[robmausser]

I think it would have ended up a mix not too different from Calgary C-Train.

C-Train is much lighter train than both GO ALRT and GO BiLevels.
Some stations are transit malls (through downtown), some are transit hubs, and some are massive garages (bigger than many GO garages).

And C-Train's free downtown section where people can hop on-off at will anytime for free at the on-street transit mall stations -- using it like a peoplemover. Imagine King Street with a complete car ban and adding high level platforms for 4-coach chained trams that go through level intersections with automatic traffic priority -- that's what Calgary C-Train sorta looks like through downtown.

Much more integrated than even the most integrated GO stations on GO network.

On the C-Train, the contrast is quite striking -- they've got some GO-like garage megastations and some transit-mall stations on the Calgary C-Train.

There's a total of 13,500 C-Train parking spaces -- not as many as GO's 65,000 -- but a massive number for an LRT.

I imagine GO ALRT would have ended up as roughly similar contrasty-station style as the Calgary C-Train -- a mix of very urban stations and some very massive park-n-ride stations.

Here's the contrast:

1. Transit mall station
(Credit: Calgary Home Boys)

2. Low-density suburban Calgary C-Train station
Looks just like suburban GO stations. (credit: Google)
View attachment 152157

3. Mid-density suburban Calgary C-Train station
(credit: Google)
View attachment 152158

Yeah, the same train stops at all of these styles of stations. Quite the contrast!

I suspect (roughly), there would have been a roughly similar spread with GO ALRT, a big mix of very urban stations and very suburban stations. A spread much bigger than GO.

The LRT's in less dense areas than Toronto like Edmonton, Calgary, Denver, are more like "tram-trains", with their long distances between stations, crossing arms at intersections, and suburban reach.

 

[Surrealplaces]

It may seem impressive, but Calgary has only a 14.4% transit modal share. The GTA has a 24.3% modal share by comparison for transit. Of the "big 6" cities in Canada, Calgary and Edmonton are significantly behind the next lowest, Ottawa at 18.3% (Edmonton is 11.3%)

Simply going % of modal share doesn't tell the whole story. Yes it is 4% points less than Ottawa (which isn't significantly less) It's significantly less than Toronto or Montreal for sure, which is to be expected. If a huge chunk of your transit model share is rail transit, as opposed to buses only, you can't make a fair comparison.

Ottawa is more so the example of what to expect for a mid-sized city for transit in Canada if you ask me. Ottawa performs at a much higher level with no rapid transit (well, the O-Train, but that is a tiny percentage of trips) and a much more dispersed employment shed. It also boasts significantly higher active transportation modal shares., all in a city that straddles a provincial boundary making transit service far more difficult and with a lower overall population.

Actually this is very misleading , just because a transit system has higher numbers doesn't mean it's performing better. If it was, there would be no need for Ottawa to build a rail system. There's nothing in the Ottawa system that can move 300K people a day with the same efficiency as the Calgary's LRT system (not meant as a knock on Ottawa). Which is why Ottawa is going to a rail system.
One of the reasons Calgary's LRT system seems to get a lot of love is that no matter how you look at it, it moves a large number of people with a limited number of cars and drivers on a fixed system.

Calgary has what may seem like a successful transit system on the surface, but underneath is a system that essentially services downtown bound commuter trips only. There are very, very few people in Calgary who live car-free, far fewer than you would see elsewhere in Canada.

That's not really accurate. I'm not sure when the last time you took an off peak trip on Calgary's LRT was, but I'm guessing you haven't or it was 30 years ago. I take the LRT frequently on off peak hours, and it's always busy. 20 years ago, you get on a train off peak, and have your pick of a seat, now you won't get a seat unless you are getting a seat at one of the end stations.
I don't disagree that it is heavily used for commuters in and out of downtown, and if you made that statement 20 years ago that it's only a commuter system you would have been right, but the system is getting used more as regular transit. With all of the various projects planned or u/c in and around LRT stations it will continue to do so even more.