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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

GO buses 16, 21, and 31 will not go to Union Station between 9am and 8pm on October 22-23 due to Gardiner closure.

For the second weekend in a row GO bus service is severely disrupted.
 
GO buses 16, 21, and 31 will not go to Union Station between 9am and 8pm on October 22-23 due to Gardiner closure.

For the second weekend in a row GO bus service is severely disrupted.

Are they just not running or diverting? I'd imagine the 16 could connect with a train easily, but why can't we have more train-bus operations during these disruptions?
 
Are they just not running or diverting? I'd imagine the 16 could connect with a train easily, but why can't we have more train-bus operations during these disruptions?

From the service updates page at www.gotransit.com


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There is no equivalent notice for 21
 

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Jonny56 is correct in a way. There is no comparison between Ontario's farebox recovery and other jurisdictions. Some include debt or leases in their operating costs (which distorts the comparison). Toronto distorts it by deleting "state of good repair" costs and a lot of these should be operating.

The computation of the recovery is 100% political and there are no apples to apples comparisons. I've tried and Toronto's is too high and others are too low...but there just isn't enough public information available to get to an accurate number.

You shouldn't skewer the messenger...he brings a valid point....his delivery may not be ideal but on a macro level he is correct. We can't compare the TTC to the MTA or Montreal and say that we are really efficient or users pay too much. There is not an apples to apples comparison and we have to dig deeper.
The ratio expresses factors that have nothing to do with the monetary model in its entirety. If I express the power to weight ratio of a car, what does it matter if the engine is paid for by debt, and I'm using nitro injection too? It's *nothing to do with politics!* It's a basic ratio determined by defined quantities, no matter how you constitute them.
[...]
Charge More?

But first, you might ask: “What’s wrong with charging a bit more?” It’s an understandable question. In order to keep things going, Metro has to match expenditure with revenue. Any organization that keeps running deficits eventually becomes insolvent. So farebox recovery would ideally be 100% and Metro would be in the black, right? Under this scenario, the subsidies keeping the buses and trains rolling are the problem. Society may begrudgingly pay out of a sense of moral obligation to the poor, but users should pay more so that we can keep this handout as small as possible.


Subsidies are . . . Complicated (and Pay for Drivers too)

The characterization described above is too simple. The government subsidizes every mode of transportation so thoroughly that singling out the buses and trains in Los Angeles is a mistake, and a misunderstanding of how the Los Angeles region funds its transportation investments.

Transit Riders Pay Twice

First of all, transit users pay twice for public transportation. Obviously they pay when they swipe their Tap cards on train platforms or when they get on the bus. Each weekday, Angelenos partake in this activity over 1,350,000 times. Second, transit users pay in the form of taxes. Sales taxes, to be precise: under the county-wide referenda Proposition A (1980), Proposition C (1990), and Measure R (2008), transit riders contribute again to Metro’s bottom line via a 1.5 percent sales tax. Close to 70% of Los Angeles County transportation investments come from these 3 county sales taxes, and a 4th is under consideration for the ballot in November 2016. A large portion of the funds raised under these measures admittedly flows to capital projects, not operating expenses. Still, the fact remains that transit users pay to ride, whereas drivers are not charged for entry onto the freeway.

Drivers Get Subsidies Too

The inescapable fact remains that driving (and parking) is hugely subsidized in Los Angeles County. The freeways may be free to use, but they were certainly not free to build, and they are not free to maintain. The myth that gas taxes pay for roads has been thoroughly discredited: today, less than half of U.S. highway spending is paid for by user fees such as the gas tax. Indeed, user fees also fail to cover operating expenses at the airport: under projections for 2014, only 23% of LAX operating revenue came from user fees, while a remarkable 17.2% came from parking (suggesting that Metro is also ignoring a potentially vast revenue stream by generally providing free parking at park and rides). In addition, the cost of providing parking of all varieties is bundled into land development costs and passed on to tenants in the form of higher rents. In short, everyone pays for highways and parking lots, even if they don’t own a car. Just as the non-transit riding drivers pay for Metro through sales taxes, so to do the transit riding non-drivers pay for the highways via their tax dollars. The incidental benefit conferred on drivers by the bus and rail systems is also enormous. While congestion is already an issue in LA, imagine if the daily 1,350,000 trips taken by bus or rail were made from behind the wheel instead. Congestion would be significantly worse.

Are Fares too Low or too High?

So transit users subsidize motorists. They should still pay more per ride, though, right? Joseph Stromberg argues this point: “Transit in the US is caught in a vicious cycle,” says [Columbia University Professor of Urban Planning David] King. “We push for low fares for social reasons, but that starves the transit agency, which leads to reduced service.” Stromberg argues that cities with higher fares have better service, citing London as an example. It’s true that London “collects a staggering 91% of its operating costs from its commuters.” But is this a uniform ideal? Stockholm collects a mere 37% of operating costs from its commuters, but operates at high frequencies and covers a large geographical area. Is Stockholm doing it wrong? London charges £4.80 for a cash-purchased one-way tube ticket. Is that extraordinarily high price a good one?

Higher Price, Lower Demand

Under current circumstances, the likely result of higher transit fares in Los Angeles is reduced ridership. Higher prices reduce demand, particularly when the cost of driving remains low. We’ve seen this in LA already: since the fare hikes took effect in September 2014, bus ridership has declined by 5% and rail ridership by 2.7%. With the increased revenue from higher fares, declining ridership may not create fiscal pain in the short term. In the long term, however, fewer riders translates into less revenue, eventually forcing additional fare hikes that further depress ridership. This is not a winning dynamic, but a trap leading to slow decline.

Maximizing Ridership Means Intensifying Land Use

The farebox recovery ratio fixation leads transit into a dangerous conceptual space: fare hikes and service cuts. But there are ideas outside this straightjacket: the pattern of development itself, the exponential power of reliability, and the untapped financial power of land near transit stops. Metro should focus on incentivizing walkable urban places around train and bus stops and focus on frequency. Funding the ideas and strategies outlined in its 2014 first/last mile strategic plan would go a long way towards realizing these aims (and putting a price on parking might be a first step towards finding the necessary funds). Achieving these goals will maximize ridership, the only sure way towards securing the financial solvency of the transit system. The new ballot measure under consideration for 2016 may raise tens of billions of dollars for transportation infrastructure. It will subsidize trains, buses, and lots of roadway (and highway) projects for cars. What will the return be on that investment?
https://investinginplace.org/2015/10/27/the-farebox-recovery-ratio/

Now note how wrong most of these reader comments are in understanding the expressed ratio:
(following posting window)
 
There certainly is. You are yet another who fails to understand what the ratio states.

You can argue all you like on *where* the operating monies come from. But that does not alter the terms of what the ratio expresses.

If someone grants you an amount of money for buying lunch every day, and you sell what you can't eat, that could be termed "lunch money recovery ratio" if you express it in a given product such as percentage or fraction (ratio).

Where you get that money has absolutely no determination as to the resultant recovery ratio. How about a car's "power to weight ratio"? Would you undertake to argue "Oh that's not right, because that engine was bought for them, and the cars from New York and Montreal were paid for by debt not being expressed in the ratio, and besides, they're using nitro injection"?

Using your example of a lunch box Toronto would exclude the ziploc bag that the sandwich is in while the MTA would include the debt that is used to acquire the lunchbox.

In your power to weight example Toronto would siphon off all the gas and fluids before looking at the ratio while NYC would put gas into the car plus add 4 people before weighing. So the same Corolla would have much different power to weight ratio's.

If each person includes the same expenses its a good ratio. But each transit authority includes different amounts in the ratio so it doesn't compare the same thing. Go to the source documents for the MTA ratio and you will find interest included. Go to the TTC and see the State of Good repair excluded.
 
The Farebox Recovery Ratio: A Misleading Metric (investinginplace.org)

submitted 11 months ago by Crayz9000

  • 3 comments
  • redditFTW1 2 points 11 months ago
    You know what... As a Torontonian I agree with this. Even though we have the highest farebox recovery ratio in North America already, I think if we were pressured enough to make that 100% service may yet improve... But again I'm not sure, it could all be a farce.
    • permalink
    • JP4R 1 point 11 months ago

      Toronto definitely needs more funding... for everyone that complains about transit being subsidized, how much public money goes into the highway maintenance around the city that facilitates travel to and from the suburbs? and everywhere else? I'm not saying we should add more 407 models, because the 407 ETR should have never been a toll road either IMHO but there's a cost / subsidy to many public services. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be invested in.
      redditFTW1 1 point 11 months ago

      Yes I agree, but the author of the article makes a valid point.... If we don't aim for a high recovery ratio service will not really get better. I say increase the subsidy but aim to still cover operating costs at least 80%.
 
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Using your example of a lunch box Toronto would exclude the ziploc bag that the sandwich is in while the MTA would include the debt that is used to acquire the lunchbox.
If the ziploc is included in the operating budget, then the expressed ratio is correct. You have a problem understanding definitions.
In your power to weight example Toronto would siphon off all the gas and fluids before looking at the ratio while NYC would put gas into the car plus add 4 people before weighing. So the same Corolla would have much different power to weight ratio's.

If four people are added, the weight is increased. If there's no gas, then the power is zero.
 
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The ratio expresses factors that have nothing to do with the monetary model in its entirety. If I express the power to weight ratio of a car, what does it matter if the engine is paid for by debt, and I'm using nitro injection too? It's *nothing to do with politics!* It's a basic ratio determined by defined quantities, no matter how you constitute them.

It absolutely matters what is in the ratio and what is out. You need to know what powers are included (your nitro injection could be in or out) and what weights (the empty weight, the loaded weight, the expected average weight).

Farebox recovery is a ratio of money collected to cost of service delivery. So hopefully all the agencies have standardize what "farebox" revenue is and include all revenues related to people riding (passes, etc) and exclude all other revenues (advertising, etc), but there is probably a lot more variability in what is included in the cost of service delivery. Some would include the administrative costs, some wouldn't, some would include the asset depreciation, some wouldn't, some would include debt servicing, some wouldn't. Even if you have a clear idea of what you would like to include there can be challenges to calculate... for example the TTC runs Paratrans and the cost of an employee that works on both... are you capturing how much time the employee works on the TTC vs Paratrans? What about the bus barn that stores TTC Buses and Paratrans vehicles? What about the employee paid by the city of Toronto which is dedicated to public transportation, but who in another city would be working directly within the transit agency? What about the Metrolinx employee working on the Presto implementation within the TTC? Getting exact comparisons is hard, even if you clearly stated that Farebox is all revenues to ride, and the Cost to be recovered is all ongoing (salaries, maintenance, administration) directly related to providing the service but not the capital costs or capital debt servicing cost.
 
Also, the same weekend as the Gardiner closure, they are reducing GO Train service between Aldershot and Appleby stations for track work at Burlington GO Station. Any idea what that is about? Just maintenance?
and...relocating one of the bus routes dislodged by the gardiner closure to...you guessed it....Aldershot!
 
It absolutely matters what is in the ratio and what is out.
Of course it does, but that does not affect the simple calculation, as per definition:
[The farebox recovery ratio (also called fare recovery ratio) of a passenger transportation system is the fraction of operating expenses which are met by the fares paid by passengers. It is computed by dividing the system's total fare revenue by its total operating expenses.]
Farebox recovery ratio - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

How you calculate those contributing factors is a whole other matter, but the ratio is as defined.
You need to know what powers are included (your nitro injection could be in or out) and what weights (the empty weight, the loaded weight, the expected average weight).
That's a given in the defining factors of the ratio. They could be powered by little green Martians, it doesn't make any difference. I've worked with algebra all my life, why this is so difficult for some to understand boggles me...if you don't agree with the *factors*, then qualify or change them, but the formula stays the same!

Farebox recovery is a ratio of money collected to cost of service delivery. So hopefully all the agencies have standardize what "farebox" revenue is
There is no standard, which is discussed at length in the articles I've posted. Your daughter gets an A in math at her local school. Her friend, who goes to a nearby school also got an A, yet one is far better at math than the other. Does that mean that both, one, or neither of them got an A?

Suppose for a moment both girls were in the same class at the same school. One is from the rich side of the tracks, and has a private tutor and excellent health care, a serene stress-free life, and excellent nutrition, let alone scoring a higher IQ (another matter where arbitrary factors set the product).

Does that lessen her score for an A if both girls earn one? The discussion then becomes the factors leading to that score, not the calculation of it.
 
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been having a bit of banter back and forth with AMA on twitter about the horrible execution of this re-routing this weekend.

It all started when she sent out an innocuous 'plan ahead" tweet. I have no interest in taking a bus this weekend but I thought I would check to see how easy it is to plan ahead.

Firstly, the schedule at GO transit dot com does not show the revised routing....so someone getting on a 31 at Brampton GO (for instance) has no idea how long it will take (or it is expected to take) for that bus to arrive at Port Credit...so they do not know which bus to catch to hook up with which train to get them to Union at their scheduled time....how do you plan ahead without the information to plan ahead.

even worse (IMO) without any knowledge of the revised routing of these buses....how would someone know where to catch them? Sure the obvious stations (Mt. Pleasant, Brampton GO, Bramalea GO) will be served...it is probably fairly likely that Shoppers World would also be served......but what route after Shoppers World? Is it straight down Hurontario? If so, someone that normally catches a bus at Kennedy and Steeles may be standing there for a while before they realize their bus ain't comin'
 
I saw hi-rail vehicles on the Richmond Hill line in the Don Valley, north of Pottery Road today. The one truck had a huge boom and cut logs on it. I couldn't see much through the trees (I was hiking on the other side of the river), but scheduled vegetation clearing I'd assume.
 
Stated operating cost of TTC is over $1.5 billion - 10x higher than Missisauga Transit. Higher than STM's approx. $1.3 billion. Do people seriously think $1.5 billion is exceedingly low? It seems to me the real reason for the high cost recovery ratio is not exceedingly low costs, but exceedingly high revenue ($1.1 billion for TTC vs. $0.6 billion for STM).

Like the ~80% cost recovery for GO doesn't surprise me considering how expensive their fares are. TTC is the same. TTC doesn't offer 2 hour unlimited use like 905 systems. So no return trips within that 2 hours, or no stopovers, meaning a high price to pay for short trips. And 905 systems accept each other's fares, and TTC doesn't accept anyone's fares. TTC weekly and monthly passes are also far more expensive than the 905 systems, and far more expensive than STM as well - $141 for TTC vs. $83 for STM. Yeah, that's right. The TTC monthly pass is almost 2x more expensive than STM's.

So people should stop blaming high recovery on misleading cost numbers. It's just about the fares.

Keep in mind it was 60% before the Mike Harris Era and then rose to 80% due to massive service cuts. Do people find 60% so hard to believe also? Then stated 45% cost recovery right now for the suburban systems (Mississauga, Brampton, York) must be crazy. Maybe they are. If there was more government funding for transit, these cost recoveries would be a lot lower, and be more similar to other systems. Keep in mind, Mississauga's cost recovery was over 60% too. Government funding makes a huge difference.
 

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