GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

. Yes, GO paid hundreds of millions to CN (and CP) for track over the years to the point that they now own 80%. However, from what I can tell, CN really didn't care that much if they owned these lines or not. I assume they didn't care if the status quo continued. Their goal shareholder value, not more passenger trains on their tracks. So I don't see how much leverage GO had in the discussions over CN. I don't see CN and GO as equals in this.

Totally agree, and I don't think the price paid to CN and CP was unreasonable. The alternative would have been some form of expropriation. I will give ML credit to be smart enough to offer an amount that is less than what a third party might have awarded the railways. The railways have an obligation to extract the best deal they can. There is no principle of "public interest" here - if the shareholders get less than they arguably deserve, they can sue. And fire their Board.

The other challenge is that this forum really doesn't have anyone (as far as I can tell) that can provide CN's perspective to confirm or support what I've written above. I don't mind playing the Devil's Advocate here, or at least trying to understand the considerations freight railways have when it comes to track decisions.

I don't pretend to know specifics, but we can speculate a little. The traffic conflict inherent in 2WAD level traffic, electrification, and encroachment on core freight routes all make the 'hole' discussions a larger 'ask'. As you noted, the railways simply have more negotiating leverage than ML, and their shareholders expect them to be aggressive. Time is on the railway's side. An old negotiating maxim goes, "he with the lead butt wins".

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

My point is......if you break the corridor down (as has happened) into 3 sections, there were 2 (West of Georgetown and East of Bramalea) that CN had little/no use for anymore and one section (between Georgetown and Bramalea) that they view as key to their operations still. From their perspective, they enhanced shareholder value by getting a decent amount of cash in the door for the two sections that were "surplus" to their needs...without giving up anything on the part they need....from a GO perspective, by giving them the cash for those two sections without including/reaching an agreement on the middle bit...you took away a large (all?) part of the reason for them to sit at the table in the first place.....and you (we really) have paid for two sections of track that, without the 3rd, don't really advance your goal for the corridor all that much.

I understand that, but I just don't see from CN's perspective why they would have cared or been that interested in making deal with GO for the entire corridor. Sure, they got some one time cash but was it really that big of a priority over all? If they wanted to get rid of the line and get the cash, they could have sold it years ago. Also, for the Georgetown South Project to get off the ground and the heavy lifting to happen, GO pretty much had to get the southern portion of the line first and get started on the construction of the major grade separations. Time was of the essence.

My personal view is that CN, as Paul just mentioned, can just run out the clock on the negotiations if they want. It's all about priorities. The status quo was working for them before the sale of the southern portion, and the present situation. I think we all want the same thing and the debate we're having is how skillful the province/Metrolinx are at negotiation. Paul's comments above make a lot of sense.

I obviously would like to see, like I'm sure everyone else here, more GO service on all rail corridors, regardless of ownership, as quickly as possible and with realistic and honest conversations about the existing conditions.

 

[smallspy]

1. GO owns all of the corridor out to Bramalea......

Nitpick: GO owns the Weston Sub to the junction at Halwest, which is .6 of a mile east of Bramalea. All of the track on the Halton Sub is owned by CN.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

Nitpick: GO owns the Weston Sub to the junction at Halwest, which is .6 of a mile east of Bramalea. All of the track on the Halton Sub is owned by CN.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

There's a separate track connecting the Weston Sub to the Bramalea GO south platform correct? Does that allow them to run GO trains, if they decided to, without CN's permission or interacting with CN's control centre?

 

[smallspy]

There's a separate track connecting the Weston Sub to the Bramalea GO south platform correct? Does that allow them to run GO trains, if they decided to, without CN's permission or interacting with CN's control centre?

No. There are 4 tracks running through Bramalea Station - track 1 has no platform, tracks 2 and 3 on either side of the island platform, and a service track at the very south with its own platform. But tracks 1, 2 and 3 are all mainline tracks, and connect to both the Weston and Halton Subs, and the service track ties in at both ends to track 3.

In any case, even if there was another track that didn't connect with the others, it would still require CN's permission as they are still dispatching GO's lines for the next couple of years.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

Sorry my mistake. I meant to write that the fourth most southerly track would allow GO to by pass the switchches where Halwest and Weston interact and allow a direct connection to Weston. I was under the impression that this fourth track wasn't a through track used for mainline service.

Totally understand your point about CN dispatching.

No. There are 4 tracks running through Bramalea Station - track 1 has no platform, tracks 2 and 3 on either side of the island platform, and a service track at the very south with its own platform. But tracks 1, 2 and 3 are all mainline tracks, and connect to both the Weston and Halton Subs, and the service track ties in at both ends to track 3.

In any case, even if there was another track that didn't connect with the others, it would still require CN's permission as they are still dispatching GO's lines for the next couple of years.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

Trains can enter Bramalea station Track 4 without entering the Halton, correct. So it's possible to run frequent service Between Union and Bramalea without any impact on CN.

Track 3 between Bramalea (Halwest) and Peel is pretty much dedicated to GO (although CN trains do get routed over it at times). Again, GO trains accessing T3 don't impact on the routing of freight on the two original freight main tracks.

The conflict begins at Peel, where there are only two tracks to west of Brampton. Until a few years ago, there was only one track through this stretch. I believe GO paid for the double tracking, so arguably CN owes GO the use of one track, but the interlocking trackage at Peel is laid out in a way that negates this.

In any event, to avoid conflict altogether, you'd need four tracks through Brampton. I can understand why CN might balk at this. That gets you to Mount Pleasant, but then you need a flyover to get to Georgetown.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I disagree. GO owns almost the entire Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West corridors. Even when there were portions still owned by CN Rail, the 30 minute service frequency came in after the addition of a third track or fourth track. What would you have done or being doing differently to convince CN Rail to provide access?

Should governments at all levels raised earlier the issue of the Missing Link and started the EAs to add track to Brampton (or other lines) ? Sure, but ownership is still a challenge and the Georgetown South Project took many years. Brampton, Milton, and Richmond Hill at CN and CP's main freight rail corridors. Negotiations take longer than a day. There are challenges with running small and fast commuter trains in the same corridor with long and slow freight trains. Government can't just wave a wand and solve these things overnight.

In fact, on the Lakeshore Corridor, no rail-over-rail grade separations were required. The premise, I believe, was built what they could, in the places they owned, as quickly as possible. Get the easy stuff out of the way. Also, there was track expansion in Brampton around the time you mentioned (2007). Some locations saw a second or third track be added, and the new south platform at Brampton. It was funded under the GO Transit Rail Improvement Plan (GO TRIP). Construction started around 2004 and I believe finished around 2006-7.

Expanding commuter rail service when you don't have complete ownership is more complicated than just drawing a line on a map and running the trains tomorrow.

Of course it's challenging. The thing that's unacceptable is the puffery (from both ML and the politicians) about how great this will be when it's done, when there is no plan that addresses the obvious barriers and risks..... and therefore no real prospect of it getting done.

This from January 2009:
http://www.newswire.ca/news-release...d-rail-link-to-pearson-airport-537011401.html

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have taken 7 years for those involved to discover that CN owned part of the line, and this might present barriers........

- Paul

1. GO owns all of the corridor out to Bramalea......even for points to the west you would think that running trains every 30 or 60 minutes to Bramalea then express buses from there would be faster than all bus trips to Union.
2. What would I do? Well every negotiating course/seminar I have taken reminds you not to give the other guy too much of what he wants until you get what you want. So GO/Ont has transferred, what, hundreds of millions (is it that much) to CN to buy the parts of the line that they really didn't need anymore without getting an agreement to also find a way to sell the part that they (CN) do need......what incentive does CN have now to do a deal on the donut hole that has been created?

I'd be in favour of that.



I guess we'll just have to continue to speculate on the negotiations because so little if anything is ever released. It's always marked as "commercially sensitive". Yes, GO paid hundreds of millions to CN (and CP) for track over the years to the point that they now own 80%. However, from what I can tell, CN really didn't care that much if they owned these lines or not. I assume they didn't care if the status quo continued. Their goal shareholder value, not more passenger trains on their tracks. So I don't see how much leverage GO had in the discussions over CN. I don't see CN and GO as equals in this.

The other challenge is that this forum really doesn't have anyone (as far as I can tell) that can provide CN's perspective to confirm or support what I've written above. I don't mind playing the Devil's Advocate here, or at least trying to understand the considerations freight railways have when it comes to track decisions.

There's really no way for CN to defend itself or justify why it isn't moving faster or allowing GO to do more. We don't know all of the commercial and financial considerations CN contemplates when making decisions or agreeing to sell a line. Yes, Brampton, Milton, and Richmond Hill are now "holes". I assume at some point will get some kind of sense on if the Missing Link will even be studied or CN will allow more trips or EAs to add tracks (without selling the 'hole' portion in Brampton).

My point is......if you break the corridor down (as has happened) into 3 sections, there were 2 (West of Georgetown and East of Bramalea) that CN had little/no use for anymore and one section (between Georgetown and Bramalea) that they view as key to their operations still. From their perspective, they enhanced shareholder value by getting a decent amount of cash in the door for the two sections that were "surplus" to their needs...without giving up anything on the part they need....from a GO perspective, by giving them the cash for those two sections without including/reaching an agreement on the middle bit...you took away a large (all?) part of the reason for them to sit at the table in the first place.....and you (we really) have paid for two sections of track that, without the 3rd, don't really advance your goal for the corridor all that much.

I think Paul has said it here. The feeling is that these delays have done nothing but make people anxious. It's not like they could not do rail service to Bramalea right now. But the main point is now they own the track, they need to stop dragging their feet.

 

[TOareaFan]

I understand that,

Honestly, I don't think you understand the point I am making....not a criticism of you, perhaps I am not making it clearly enough. So my parsing it into parts that follows is to try and clarify.

but I just don't see from CN's perspective why they would have cared or been that interested in making deal with GO for the entire corridor.

I agree...I think their motivation level for selling the entire corridor was/is very low. They have determined that they have a need/use for that stretch that they still own.

Sure, they got some one time cash but was it really that big of a priority over all?

But there were two parts of it that had very limited use to them and they had a willing buyer with public money that wanted it and, naively, thought that eventually buying the middle bit would not be that hard.....that has turned out to be wrong.

If they wanted to get rid of the line and get the cash, they could have sold it years ago.

Exactly....so, knowing that the middle bit was going to be hard to buy....and knowing that paying them for the bits that they did not want/need would remove any motiviation (low as it may be) why would you write them a cheque.

The bit from Bramalea eastward made some sense...there was value that it added to the network and even I can get on board with that.....but the purchase of the section west of Georgetown should never have happened until we knew we were not creating a donut of a corridor. What value/improvement to the corridor does GO get from owning the section west of Georgetown if they can't actually get trains to that section because CN owns the bit between Georgetown and Bramalea.....if anything, buying in that order has created an incentive not for CN but for GO/ML to way (way) overpay for the middle bit....if CN would even consider selling it (and I have seen no indication they are considering selling it).

Also, for the Georgetown South Project to get off the ground and the heavy lifting to happen, GO pretty much had to get the southern portion of the line first and get started on the construction of the major grade separations. Time was of the essence.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why would we want the headache of negotiating with CP, paying for the track rearrangements that would be needed, dealing with the operational realities and CP's need to extract a profit, etc when we could just build a bypass and buy the line outright? Over the long term the cost of doing that might not be such a big deal.

By "bypass" do you mean the 'Missing Link'? It would be the Holy Grail of making *many* projects do-able. And at the end of the day, it would not only make freight operations far more rational and the public safer, it would actually save money, and allow Reaper's (and other posters') re-purposing of the Canpa a very good concept. GO obviously has something in mind for later to have quietly purchased it, and it's got to be more than just hedging their bet and/or stock movement.

Just catching up on the discussion since the quote above:

1. GO owns all of the corridor out to Bramalea......even for points to the west you would think that running trains every 30 or 60 minutes to Bramalea then express buses from there would be faster than all bus trips to Union.

That's an interesting point, and when express buses are run in lieu of trains, they *match* the running times, at least on the timetables. Which still validates TO's point. During peak-hour, obviously the passenger volume is best handled by train, but even then, those few trains running through to K/W are sparsely used west of Georgetown. When I was still travelling to and from Guelph, I could pick the seat of my choice west of Georgetown. East of Mt Pleasant is a different story.

The rationale for ML buying the stretch west of Georgetown only makes *fiscal* sense when looking at provincial policy to establish ownership of any major transportation corridor that becomes available. My concern is that ML used a limited budget to buy that when the money could have been used elsewhere. Perhaps the province accorded separate funding for the purchase, I don't know, but I do question the running of full trains almost empty all-day when an express bus can match the same timings at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Allandale25]

Honestly, I don't think you understand the point I am making....not a criticism of you, perhaps I am not making it clearly enough. So my parsing it into parts that follows is to try and clarify.

What value/improvement to the corridor does GO get from owning the section west of Georgetown if they can't actually get trains to that section because CN owns the bit between Georgetown and Bramalea.....if anything, buying in that order has created an incentive not for CN but for GO/ML to way (way) overpay for the middle bit....if CN would even consider selling it (and I have seen no indication they are considering selling it).

Appreciate the added text on your viewpoint. We may need to start a separate thread just for GO/CN/CP corridor negotiations. Maybe someone could correct me, but wasn't the reason for GO buying the KW to Georgetown portion so that they could get CTC installed more quickly on that portion and upgrade the tracks? CN and GEXR weren't willing to do it. With GO owning it and paying for the upgrades, it allows them to run more trains (or, operate more safely) between KW and Georgetown.

I'm certainly not a negotiation expert. My personal view is that I'm not sure any alternative approach would have resulted in a different outcome given all the factors at play. The reality is that all governments, parties, and even citizens should have been making transit a bigger priority decades earlier.

 

[steveintoronto]

Danforth GO to Hamilton GO is about that long, and costs $13.90 cash, or $12.35 on Presto.

True, but the SMART trains are vastly more plush (as are all California commuter cars, including those made in Thunder Bay) complete with sections reserved for bikes. It's the only way to get Californians out of their cars, and it is working.

 

[steveintoronto]

Maybe someone could correct me, but wasn't the reason for GO buying the KW to Georgetown portion so that they could get CTC installed more quickly on that portion and upgrade the tracks?

Actually VIA installed it, and even though paying for it, still can't get all the pathings they were hoping for.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm certainly not a negotiation expert. My personal view is that I'm not sure any alternative approach would have resulted in a different outcome given all the factors at play. The reality is that all governments, parties, and even citizens should have been making transit a bigger priority decades earlier.

There is no guarantee in any negotiations and we are, to some extent, dealing with hindsight being 20-20......but when you enter a negotiation (of any type) it is never a bad thing to sit down and think from the other guy's perspective....what do they want from me....what are they gonna be willing to give me....what is going to be hard to get....and have as a goal not doing the easy things first before getting the things that are important to you out of the way.

 

[crs1026]

By "bypass" do you mean the 'Missing Link'?

I did, and I still think it's a great idea. The question is whether we can wait that long to get CN off the Halton. I do think some sort of compromise might be possible in the meanwhile, provided we keep electrification off the table until CN is gone. CN is not *that* busy, they could make do with some middle ground in track availability if they knew it was not for all time.

Appreciate the added text on your viewpoint. We may need to start a separate thread just for GO/CN/CP corridor negotiations. Maybe someone could correct me, but wasn't the reason for GO buying the KW to Georgetown portion so that they could get CTC installed more quickly on that portion and upgrade the tracks? CN and GEXR weren't willing to do it. With GO owning it and paying for the upgrades, it allows them to run more trains (or, operate more safely) between KW and Georgetown.

As to buying in pieces, I don't think ML negotiated poorly. The inner piece was lost to CN as a freight corridor, there is little industry left, and CN knew it would retain switching rights in any event. Selling the line gets it off their books (reducing the asset base is very good for the balance sheet, not to mention no more fixed costs to pay ) and gave them a chunk of money to invest elsewhere. The price merely had to be enough so that having the cash in hand now was more attractive than waiting and maybe getting more cash later. So there was some check and balance in negotiating power, although ML was probably more desperate to buy than CN was to sell.

The GEXR piece needed to be done and it's good that it happened. The freight lease is coming up for renewal, and GEXR and its parent company G+W is a stick in the mud with respect to negotiating passenger use. A four-way negotiation between VIA, GO, CN and GEXR would be hugely awkward, and the two freight rail organizations had the most incentive to be "cozy" at VIA/GO's expense. With the line in ML's hands, GO is the landlord now and not just another tenant. That's a big improvement. The CTC deal is a sideshow that originated with VIA. It's too bad that ML hadn't got its oar in sooner so that the spec's would have accommodated GO's needs better.

I do wonder if ML has been able to capitalise on the Province's leverage for "other considerations". For instance, Queens Park has been relatively mute on CN's proposal to build an intermodal yard south of Milton. I would have expected QP to extract all sorts of concessions from CN before letting that go forward. Of course, every action has its reaction, and ML walks a tightrope in holding the railways' feet to the fire without giving them reason to retaliate. And maybe there is more behind the scenes than we realise.

- Paul