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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

^milton was the second fastest growing town in the country in the last census, with only Stouffville beating it.

and as always, you should never build transit because they "deserve it", make an honest case for it first.

yes it was the second fastest...by percentage only. when you are growing off of a small base that is a very easy thing to do. To use an example that I know....while Milton's growth percentage is high, the city of Brampton grew in the same period by an amount that was +/- the same as the total (after the growth) of the population of Milton.

I did not use the word "deserve" so please do not put words in my mouth...but perhaps you could tell me why the two cities with very similar distance and populations like Cambridge and Barrie should have such dramatically different service levels from the province?
 
^ you said that because barrie has it cambridge should as well, essentially meaning that they deserve it because barrie has it.

I can't tell you until a ridership projection is released, but i'm not one to say the automatically should have it becuase another city has it.
 
^ you said that because barrie has it cambridge should as well, essentially meaning that they deserve it because barrie has it.
No, I said if I was a resident/taxpayer in Cambridge I would be wondering why there is such a disparity in service level when the two communities are seemingly so similar.

We keep hearing about evidence based transit planning but when the rubber hits the road (or the wheels hit the tracks) the decisions seem to be based less on evidence and more on politics.
 
Half hourly service would need a new siding in Aurora. You might be able to do hourly service from Union to Barrie South after Georgetown South is finished, provided the sidings at Bradford and York U still exist and the GTS track layout allows a meet between King and Lansdowne. Even then, Bradford could only be served every two hours unless it got a pedestrian tunnel.

Not with the current track layout, and not in the near future either. It is inefficient to operate more than one train on the line at regular intervals running the full route to Barrie, because the siding is not in the middle of the line. Minimum headway would therefore be limited by the longer time north of the siding, as well as resulting in long layovers at Union. The minimum theoretical headway would be roughly 2h, assuming no schedule padding and super-quick turnarounds. This can only practically be attained if when a train arrives at the terminus, the return trip is a separate trainset already ready to go (like trips F2 and B2 in my schedule), which requires at least two tracks at the terminal stations.

Minimum headway in a continuous service condition is (round trip time)/(#of trains on line), so express service makes a massive difference. Each minute saved in travel time cuts the minimum headway by two minutes, and with only one siding on the line, bidirectional service is limited to 2 trainsets at at time. That's the main reason I went with express service.

The siding was designed for service between East Gwillimbury and Union, for which it would allow a minimum theoretical headway of roughly 1h05min with no schedule padding and super-quick turnarounds. But East Gwillimbury only has one track, so such a low headway is not possible in real life.

In order to operate at 30 minute frequencies, there need to be sidings every 15 minutes along the line. At that point, you might as well go with full double track, which is the plan.

I could make a new schedule which uses the proposed track layout for the near future, with double track from Union to Davenport Diamond (GTS), Downsview Park to Rutherford (TYSSE and separate project), and Maple to King City (existing). It would still be limited by the distance between the Maple siding and Barrie, but it might permit higher frequencies on the southern section.



Right, I totally forgot about that. CP wouldn't be too pleased with this proposed schedule.

Let's move on that project already!

Thanks! Reaper, I would love to see you make a schedule based on the future track layout, it would be awesome.
 
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It doesn't have to be 4 trips per day. I'd think day 1 it would be one or two trips per day. I'm sure for the right price, CP would make it happen, and give it priority. The question is, would GO and/or Cambridge meet their price. Perhaps the Mayor of Cambridge would like to put his money where his mouth is.

Just to clarify, one run in a single direction is considered a trip. So by 4 trips, I mean 4 train movements over the length of the line; 2 in the morning and 2 returning in the evening.

As for the service, there's multiple issues at hand here.
GO has to pay CP a wheelage fee to use their track, but track time has to be negotiated first. I have no idea how they negotiate these agreements but they might not be so easy to modify. Even if GO/Cambridge was willing to pay a kings ransom for track usage, if CP say track time isn't available there's nothing they can do. Which knowing CP & Hunter, I'd suggest is very likely even if its not actually the case i.e. build us a second track please! Also, the price they might demand might not make much sense from a purely financially point of view considering the projected ridership.

From an operational point of view its even less likely. In the 15 miles between Cambridge & Guelph jct. there's but a single siding(Puslinch). What do you think are the chances Hunter 'hater of passenger trains' Harrison would let a GO train hold the mainline and instead put one of his precious freights into the hole(railway term for a siding) at Puslinch(for those that could even fit in there; it has 6256ft of usable space) or wait on the 2nd track at Guelph Jct? Don't forget(or for those who didn't know), this is the man who decided CN wasn't going to play nice with the gov' anymore to provide crewing for GO trains. Largely because they could make something like 10 times as much(rumored) using the same man power running freights instead.
(Coincidentally also the man I have to thank for my current position because of that specific move. But that's neither here nor there in regards to this matter :D)

Anyhow, its something less than zero.

Thus every time there's a possibility of a meet, the GO train would be stuck waiting to leave Cambridge and/or it would be going into the hole at Puslinch. As we all should know, freights don't operate on an exact schedule like passenger trains. I mentioned that the GO train might be delayed 15 minutes waiting for a freight(s) to pass, that was a conservative estimate. But really still the only one that matters since as we all know, any trip delayed by 15 minutes or more will result in passengers being given a full refund(train meets aren't an exception) and decease service reliability to thousands of people waiting at other stations further down. I can't possibly see GO implementing an unreliable service like that on the Milton line, a line that's highly congested and probably already has the lowest level of customer satisfaction.

In addition, there is no agreement for Bombardier crews to operate on the Milton line and none of our personal are currently qualified on that territory. CP is the only one that's contracted by GO to provide the operating crews for that line, which might be yet another reason for CP to balk, preferring to allocated their crews for use in the far more profitable freight service.

No, there's a reason why GO originally project this service to begin in 15 to 25 years. And the people that made that determination did so for very good reasons. The only way this happens any sooner is if there's a strong political motivation for it and at a much higher level than municipal.
 
Why should they? What contribution to increased/extended GO service have other cities made?
Other municipalities have funded GO in the past. I don't believe Cambridge ever has. Though I don't know what current contribution levels are.

Toronto is contributing vast sums of money to renovate Union Station currently.
 
The KW and Cambridge GO services are...weird.
There's some stat floating around somewhere suggesting that just as many people commute to Waterloo Region from the GTA as vice-versa. So, AFAIK, most of the push for increase train service, in KW at least, isn't so much all-day service as it is counter-peak service (and faster train, that say, skips a few stops).
 
The KW and Cambridge GO services are...weird.
There's some stat floating around somewhere suggesting that just as many people commute to Waterloo Region from the GTA as vice-versa. So, AFAIK, most of the push for increase train service, in KW at least, isn't so much all-day service as it is counter-peak service (and faster train, that say, skips a few stops).


IMO, I'm against it. It's too far. They should have their own provincially funded commuter rail.
 
The KW and Cambridge GO services are...weird.
There's some stat floating around somewhere suggesting that just as many people commute to Waterloo Region from the GTA as vice-versa. So, AFAIK, most of the push for increase train service, in KW at least, isn't so much all-day service as it is counter-peak service (and faster train, that say, skips a few stops).

I read an article stating Kitchener's Economic Development Department is preparing a report to be submitted to both Metrolinx/GO and Glen Murray regarding counter-peak service. Companies in the Lang Tannery building in Kitchener (along with the Waterloo tech sector as a whole) are privately busing in employees, for those that work in KW yet want the Toronto lifestyle. So the issue in KW is as much about bringing commuters into the city in the morning, as it is about sending commuters to the GTA.

The main issue that I've heard time and time again regarding the low ridership of the Kitchener line is the fact that west of Georgetown, the line is very slow (Guelph Jct issues, having to wait for GEXR trains). It's faster for many in KW to drive to Milton and catch the train in from there, rather than take the train from Kitchener.
 
Their own provincial Government of Ontario (GO) Transit?


Yeah. Their own Metrolinx and Commuter rail.
You are confusing me. As it relates to Barrie you wonder about half hour service but as it relates to Kitchener you say its too far.

You are aware that Kitchener is, slightly, closer to Toronto than Barrie..right?
Half hour service would start from Bradford or East Gwillimbury. I never said all the way to Barrie. That's what's in the big move, but it only plans for hourly service.
 
Yeah. Their own Metrolinx and Commuter rail.

Half hour service would start from Bradford or East Gwillimbury. I never said all the way to Barrie. That's what's in the big move, but it only plans for hourly service.

Sorry for the confusion....you had, though, asked it in response to a post that proposed 4 new trips to/from Barrie....that said, you could do the same thing on this line though.....full service to, say, GT and augment it with lesser service (but better than they have now) to Kitchener .
 
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Sorry for the confusion....you had, though, asked it in response to a post that proposed 4 new trips to/from Barrie....that said, you could do the same thing on this line though.....full service to, say, GT and augment it with lesser service (but better than they have now) to Kitchener .

Forget creating a competing commuter rail service with GO. The right answer here is to shift Metrolinx mandate from operating a commuter rail network in the GTHA to regional rail and bus service in the GGH. GO's service area has already expanded past the GTHA as it stands.
 

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