GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Willybru21]

The CSR person should be on the intercom multiple times telling people to move along into the empty part.

As mentioned above it doesn’t work, everyone assumes the entire train is as full as their part so they see no reason to move.

 

[Richard White]

Niagara is beyond signage, it needs a new design, it’s the only way to help rectify the extreme crowding.

As mentioned above it doesn’t work, everyone assumes the entire train is as full as their part so they see no reason to move.

This past weekend I took the 9 am Union to Niagara train.

People were sitting on the stairs and floor inside the train because there were no seats left.

When we got to Niagara, there were 3 WEGO shuttles to the falls. All 3 were full and the line of people still stretched the length of the parking lot (around 10 feet wide).

Niagara is a disaster whenever a GO train lets out.

 

[Willybru21]

This past weekend I took the 9 am Union to Niagara train.

People were sitting on the stairs and floor inside the train because there were no seats left.

When we got to Niagara, there were 3 WEGO shuttles to the falls. All 3 were full and the line of people still stretched the length of the parking lot (around 10 feet wide).

Niagara is a disaster whenever a GO train lets out.

Niagara also badly needs something better than whatever WEGO is, buses should run every 10 minutes or less on the green line.

 

[Richard White]

Niagara also badly needs something better than whatever WEGO is, buses should run every 10 minutes or less on the green line.

WEGO is great in the falls area, the trick is getting people from the GO station to the Falls.

A fully loaded GO train carries around 2000 people crush loaded.

Doing the math thats around 10-15 articulated buses required to get those passengers to Table Rock Point.

Not sure there is an easy solution to this issue.

 

[Willybru21]

WEGO is great in the falls area, the trick is getting people from the GO station to the Falls.

A fully loaded GO train carries around 2000 people crush loaded.

Doing the math thats around 10-15 articulated buses required to get those passengers to Table Rock Point.

Not sure there is an easy solution to this issue.

WEGO schedules aren’t that great before summer starts (Niagara still gets busy in May), and even during summer I feel like they could be better. I also find needing to buy an entire 24 hour pass just to ride very dumb.

 

[Richard White]

WEGO schedules aren’t that great before summer starts (Niagara still gets busy in May), and even during summer I feel like they could be better. I also find needing to buy an entire 24 hour pass just to ride very dumb.

They are selling passes online now.

Prior to this year you had to buy a pass at the bus station.

 

[Willybru21]

They are selling passes online now.

Prior to this year you had to buy a pass at the bus station.

Even then, if I want to day trip to Niagara I need to buy a whole $12 24h pass, that I’m only going to use twice. I’d rather pay two $3.50 fees but that’s simply not offered.

 

[anb]

Niagara also badly needs something better than whatever WEGO is, buses should run every 10 minutes or less on the green line.

Buses already come every 10-12 mins according the schedule so i don’t think that’s the problem as it is with just including as many shuttles as possible when the train comes in.

They have their own local bus that goes from the station and travels on Victoria Ave, going to the tip of Clifton Hill. Have used it once when i went to Niagara a year ago, so not sure how it is now but they do run 60ft buses on that route as well.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

WEGO is great in the falls area, the trick is getting people from the GO station to the Falls.

A fully loaded GO train carries around 2000 people crush loaded.

Doing the math thats around 10-15 articulated buses required to get those passengers to Table Rock Point.

Not sure there is an easy solution to this issue.

Honestly, there are three things that come to mind, but none of them don't have substantial cost.

-the great thing about buses is that with the kind of forewarning a go schedule has, 10-15 vehicles showing up together isn't all that unreasonable

-the streetcar options that we've talked about in the fantasy thread could well be configured to two or three car trains during demand spikes

-this kind of load is part of why an automated system does seem kind of attractive in Niagara, as sill as it may sound glancing at the size of the city; something

 

[Krypto98]

Indeed this is a fairly complicated scenario, for starters there's two different rail authorities. There's the RTC who's job is to direct the movement of all trains on a subdivision(s), meaning their focus is not just GO trains. And there's MX Rail Operations who gives operational instructions solely to GO trains. Transportation Safety officers, TSO for short, are MX employees and interface with Rail Ops. Transmissions from rail ops are done over a UHF radio which doesn't interfere with VHF transmissions and both can transmit at the same time. But try listening to and holding two conversations at once, things can easily be missed. Also all transmissions coming from the UHF(rail ops) will take a backseat to HBD broadcasts. Crews are expected to direct their full attention towards the HBD while the entire train is going over one. It doesn't help that the engines are loud and crews can be performing multiple tasks at once. For example in that particular location the engineer would also be expected to initiate his brake application for Burlington station or to start it shortly thereafter. Tragic as the loss of life from someone walking along the tracks may be the fact remains that they should not have been there in the first place. Hot box detectors meanwhile broadcast vital information about potential failures which if ignored could lead to catastrophic consequences up to and including the derailment of a train which could lead to a huge number of fatalities of the completely innocent people on board. It's simply a matter of priorty, their lives obviously take precedent over that of any trespasser.

If a problem is detected the HBD will almost immediately make an open broadcast on the standby channel in regards to the problem. If no problem is detected the HBD will still make an open broadcast but only after the entire train has passed over the detector(usually delayed by a few seconds after the final coach passes over it). Basically the entire time a train is going over an HBD the crews will be keenly focused on listening for any alarms broadcast from it on the VHF. Any broadcast coming from the UHF made during that time will only be responded to after the HBD broadcast is made. The HBD broadcast also overrides all other VHF radio communications while it is being transmitted, at least in the area in question. Because of its importance, radio transmissions from it are strong enough to overpower any and all others made in the area. So if the RTC was trying to contact the train as it was getting an HBD reading his transmission would have been overpowered by it. And even if he called them just before they got their broadcast the crew would not respond back to him right away until after they receive their HBD reading because they could inadvertently transmit over their own HBD broadcast as you cannot broadcast and receive a transmission on the radio at the exact same time. For the entire time you press down on the receiver no transmissions can be heard(other trains in the area will hear the most powerful broadcast source). Obviously this is done to avoid confusion, last thing you need is to have another transmission going off when your in the middle of trying to have a conversation. For the record RTC's do not know exactly when a train is going over an HBD, they only know that a train is somewhere inside the same block. So you always wait until you get your reading first and then only after receiving a good reading do you respond back to anyone calling you on the VHF OR the UHF. Besides it's not like it takes up a huge amount of time, a train going 60-odd mph which GO trains should be traveling at that point, would only need to dedicate about 20 seconds to the entire task. But unfortunately that could make the difference between stopping in time for a trespasser ahead or not.

Further away from the location of a HBD, broadcasts from it can still be heard but can be overpower by other closer sources of radio transmissions but only in those areas far enough away from HBD's. Every train that goes over an active HBD must receive a broadcast from it. If an HBD reading is missed the train must immediately slow down to a set speed(35mph) and contact the RTC to ascertain their reading. The RTC can usually look up HBD readings but if they can't for whatever reason the train that missed its reading will either be require to stop and perform and inspection of the entire train - the preferred option, or they can proceed to the next HBD at the reduced speed - the not preferred considering how far apart they usually are, about 20 or so miles. Phew, explaining all that was a mouthful.

The HBD between Aldershot and Burlington is quite simply in a bad location for GO trains. The MX portion of the Oakville sub starts just east of that HBD which has a different stb channel - stb channel of the CN owned and controlled portion of the Oakville sub. Normally trains are suppose to switch over to a new stb channel just before or precisely when they enter that territory. There is some leeway, but trains should not be on a different stb channel once they've entered into the new territory. Unfortunately GO trains have to stay on the CN stb channel even after entering into the MX controled territory to wait for that particular detector to broadcast its reading. Thing is, it's CN's detector. They have no problems with it being where it is and they certainly don't give a **** about whatever problems it may cause for GO trains.
Edited for language

We at CN have 1 person use their handheld on one channel and main radio on another if we need to be on 2 channels. I'm not sure why the conductor couldn't have the handheld on GO13 and the other radio on CN1 until the wayside inspection system finished broadcasting.

 

[reaperexpress]

WEGO is great in the falls area, the trick is getting people from the GO station to the Falls.

A fully loaded GO train carries around 2000 people crush loaded.

Doing the math thats around 10-15 articulated buses required to get those passengers to Table Rock Point.

Not sure there is an easy solution to this issue.

Bombardier claims that the crush load of a bilevel coach is 360 people, so a crush loaded 12-car train would theoretically be 4320 people. However that estimate is wildly over-optimistic for the Niagara train, since the crowding levels are not actually crush loads, and a lot of space is lost to bicycles.

Here are the seats I counted in this video I filmed walking through a 12-car weekday Niagara GO train:

Here's an adjusted version with the lower levels of coaches 1-3 deleted to represent the bicycle coaches of the weekend consist. The total number of seats is about 1600.

In my experience a typical load on the westbound 09:03 weekend departure from Union is roughly a seated load - some people are standing, but other parts of the train have vacant seats here and there.

On a busy day, a load of 2000 people is totally plausible, as that would represent a full seated load plus 17 people standing in each coach.

With about 16 bicycles per bike coach, that's a total of 48 people who don't need to take the bus, because they already brought a bike with them. There will also be some other people who get picked up at the station or leave by foot.

My guess is that there are about 1500 to 1900 people aboard the train who would want to take Wego upon arrival at Niagara Falls station, if the crowding/queuing levels were conducive.

According to this undated TTC document, the peak loading standard for a Novabus LFS articulated bus is 77 people. It is possible to fit more people in if necessary, but you shouldn't really plan on it. In Wego's case since everyone's boarding at once, maybe we could figure a bit higher of a load. I'll round up to 80.

To accommodate the 1600 to 2000 passengers, there would need to be about 19 to 24 articulated buses.

To put that in perspective, the entire Wego fleet is only 27 buses, of which about a quarter are 12-metre non-articulated buses.

You're certainly right that there is no easy solution to transport the sheer number of passengers arriving on a single train. The best solution would be to spread the demand across multiple morning train departures from Toronto to Niagara Falls.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think you are underestimating the percentage of people who would use alternate modes at the station, and how many passengers on the train get off before Niagara Falls. I’d be surprised if more than 50% of passengers looked to WeGo after getting off the train. Many simply choose to walk as it’s about a 20 minute walk down to the main tourist strip, along a nice separated walking path.

 

[Richard White]

I think you are underestimating the percentage of people who would use alternate modes at the station, and how many passengers on the train get off before Niagara Falls. I’d be surprised if more than 50% of passengers looked to WeGo after getting off the train.

Trust me.

WEGO is the primary source of transportation from the station.

There are very few alternatives from the station to the falls.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Trust me.

WEGO is the primary source of transportation from the station.

There are very few alternatives from the station to the falls.

Hmm. Honestly I only took the train once many years ago when it was a new service and I brought my bike, so I’m far from an expert.. but if it’s as @reaperexpress says, with ~20 buses needed and only 3 being provided right now, that would mean some people are hanging out at the station waiting for a bus for hours as they slowly ferry people down.

I suspect most end up walking, though it may not be ideal.

 

[Northern Light]

If we are to sum up the 'Last Mile' issues for GO passengers to Niagara Falls, we could perhaps agree that:

- There is a mismatch between both mean and peak demands for a last mile option and what is currently in place.

-Clearly many are currently finding options other than WEGO/Niagara Transit when taking GO, though that is likely an unhappy matter for some facing an unexpected walk, or cab/uber etc.

- Redistributing that peak load, even cutting it by 1/2 is likely necessary under just about any option, be it short, medium or long term.

- Even at 50% of current peak load, any bus based system will struggle to meet demand.

- The longer term option likely means rail in some form to Clifton Hill or thereabouts.

- The options are really confined to either a dedicated LRT on Victoria Avenue (which I see as the most likely option); or the relaying of heavy rail. The latter is problematic for a few reasons, which have been discussed before, but
it certainly isn't impossible.

- Neither of those options exist in the near term and even the former would be a challenge to deliver in under a decade.

- Therefore the redistribution of peak-load, along with better bus service, and other mitigation should be undertaken.

- One option I think might be helpful is a Niagara version of Bikeshare Toronto. Preferably, one integrated with Presto.

- Even an initial service looking primarily at closing the above gap, a couple of key destinations near the Falls themselves, and then spread along the Niagara Parkway would be likely be a hit with tourists, and if it helped a few dozen riders on each train, so much the better.