dkt
New Member
The UP platforms at Mt Dennis have already been built, so that's a done deal.
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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
From what I hear - now they have to do it right.
crs1026
Superstar
Pretty much - there has long been a realisation that ML did not have the project management expertise and engineering resources to pull off a project this big. IO took off some of the pressure by capturing the procurement piece, but IO doesn't know anything about building railroads either....so Ontario floundered around looking for a design and delivery model that might actually succeed using external resources. They may or may not have found the right model, but it took a lot of work just to figure out how to write up a contract and assemble a project team. And only now is the real work getting under way.
Meanwhile, ML has been advancing a lot of smaller projects that are the bits and pieces that bidders didn't want to include. It seems the bidders especially don't want to deal with things that have community and environmental impacts - which is why ML is doing the preliminary land acquisition, clearing, and grading in places in advance of the project agreement.
- Paul
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
No, the alternative is taking the Kitchener Line (Bramalea) local service to an UP Express stop, which would add about 5 minutes if the transfers are timed.
Again, if UPX skips the station, those riders lose 5 minutes, due to the need to transfer from GO to UP Express. They don't need to take the subway all the way to Kipling.
There's also St. Clair/Old Weston station planned between Bloor and Mt Dennis, which in my opinion ranks pretty low on the station importance scale due to its lack of regional connections.
Mt Dennis will be open for a solid decade before Line 5 reaches the airport. I think that's plenty of utility to justify the cost of those mini-platforms.
Yeah Weston is definitely too local in nature to justify a stop on an express service, it's always just been a political decision to stop there. There's lots of stuff nearby though so a frequent GO local service will do great there.
Totally agree. And as I alluded to above, it can also be the key to serving all those local stations between Union and Pearson. For example if the WB UP Express is timed to pass through right after the WB Bramalea local train, the transfer only costs 5 minutes.
In my opinion the amount of revenue gained from additional stops on the UP Express should be enough to offset the net increase in operating costs.
If the travel time to the airport is 22 minutes or less, the round trip would be 60 min so the line could run 15 min headways with 4 vehicles. Travel times 25 to 35 min require 5 vehicles (+25% operating cost), and over 40 minutes requires 6 vehicles (+50%).
I suspect that the net revenue gained by adding stops would be zero or even negative, since travellers are willing to pay higher prices for shorter trips. From that perspective the ideal service would be for UP Express to make fewer stops than today (cutting its operational cost by 20%), while a separate GO Airport Line makes all stops and charges ordinary GO fares (with a greater subsidy reflecting its greater role in transport equity).
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Metroscapes
Active Member
Agreed, I got lost in trying to account for everything else. So no need for anything south of Weston.
I'd still say it's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy, compared to what can be provided through TTC bus service. But you're right in that it's a decade away, and decisions have already been made.
Agreed. I've also wondered if speed restrictions, the fourth track in all sections and other switching considerations have been barriers to fully optimizing the running time. Pre-Georgetown South speed limits south of St Clair were 55mph, and 80 north of it. Wondering what the limits are now and if it's possible squeeze another minute or two?
reaperexpress
Senior Member
UP Express from Mount Dennis to Pearson Aiport would take 14 minutes assuming one intermediate stop (e.g. Woodbine). Driving non-stop, Google Maps estimates 16 to 30 minutes depending on traffic. Realistically a non-stop bus route would need to be scheduled for around 20-40 minutes to account for delays, and a bus stopping at each arterial cross street (along Eglinton or Dixon) would take even longer.
Until Line 5 is extended to the airport, the UP stop at Mount Dennis will provide a big benefit since it would be the best route to the airport for anyone travelling from North York, Midtown or some parts of Scarborough.
GTS generally increased the track speeds compared to what they were before, except for a 75 mph restriction through the Weston tunnel (previously 80 mph).
According to a post-GTS timetable I found, the GO speed limits heading west from Strachan are:
55 mph (89 km/h) to King Street
75 mph (121 km/h) to Queen Street
80 mph (129 km/h) to West Toronto
70 mph (112 km/h) through West Toronto underpass
80 mph (129 km/h) to Weston
75 mph (121 km/h) through Weston Tunnel
80 mph (129 km/h) to Wice (Pearson Junction)*
25 mph (40 km/h) around the curve onto the Pearson Spur
40 mph (64 km/h) along the Pearson Spur
20 mph (32 km/h) around the last curve before Pearson Station
10 mph (16 km/h) into Pearson Station
* VIA and GO trains are limited to 60 mph (97 km/h) under Hwy 401 due to low clearances, but there is no restriction for UPX.
In earlier GTS planning documents they proposed to increase the track speed to 90 mph from the Weston Tunnel to Wice (Pearson Junction), but that never ended up happening, presumably because it would be pointless with the 60 mph restriction under the 401 affecting Via and GO express trains.
Ideally they'd increase the track speed to 90 mph when they realign tracks into the new 401 tunnel, but I'm not that hopeful given how far the tracks will need to swerve to get into that tunnel. Maybe a consolation prize would be to get 90 mph from the 401 to Malton.
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Garuda
Active Member
It's crazy how the tunnel is down and yet it's just sitting there empty ready to use.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Yeah, the track realignment is awaiting demolition of Etobicoke North station and that is awaiting construction of Woodbine station. I wonder if the increasing number of GO trains skipping Etobicoke North is part of a strategy to divert ridership and enable the station to be demolished before Woodbine opens.
drum118
Superstar
Again, "NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO GO TO/FROM UNION". Not stopping At Bloor and Mount Dennis let alone Liberty Village is forcing users to/from the airport to either spend more travelling using transit, driving and parking there, using 3rd party or having someone close to them to drive/pickup x that keeps more vehicles on the road than take them off.
At this time, UPX is a Go train based on the quality of service along the line since GO only run hourly service today.
Once Crosstown opens, it offer users to/from the airport a faster way than what they have today as well not going out of their way
Not every place in the world offer no stops between the airport and the city centre as they know riders will use a station close to them than to backtrack getting to/from the city centre stop. Every city I have visited that had rail service to the airport had stops between the city centre and the airport not only for local service, but also intercity/long distance trains.
The world doesn't revolved around Union Station, but it been forcing users that they "MUST" have to travel to Union to get to/from where they want to go/from.
If users allow the extra stopping time to their travel time, it will be a dent in the time they have to spent at the airport.
Not every major city has rail to the airport for various reason that you need to use local transit or 3rd party to get to/from the airport. Had to used buses to get to/from airports in my travel a number of time both by local transit or 3rd party bus service.
At this time, UPX is a Go train based on the quality of service along the line since GO only run hourly service today.
Once Crosstown opens, it offer users to/from the airport a faster way than what they have today as well not going out of their way
Not every place in the world offer no stops between the airport and the city centre as they know riders will use a station close to them than to backtrack getting to/from the city centre stop. Every city I have visited that had rail service to the airport had stops between the city centre and the airport not only for local service, but also intercity/long distance trains.
The world doesn't revolved around Union Station, but it been forcing users that they "MUST" have to travel to Union to get to/from where they want to go/from.
If users allow the extra stopping time to their travel time, it will be a dent in the time they have to spent at the airport.
Not every major city has rail to the airport for various reason that you need to use local transit or 3rd party to get to/from the airport. Had to used buses to get to/from airports in my travel a number of time both by local transit or 3rd party bus service.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Who said that everyone wants to go to/from Union?
drum118
Superstar
NO stopping at Bloor, Mount Dennis and Weston is saying Union and speed is important from my take
ShonTron
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I think it’s just a matter of train operations convenience. Etobicoke North is almost useless except as a park & ride, especially after the GO Nobleton-Bolton bus was cut. With only one available track, it’s easier to not serve.
Richard White
Senior Member
Right but service operating at a crawl because it has subway stop spacing doesn't help.
Less stops means getting from a to b faster.
If you want a local service fine, just don't do it on the UPX
WB62
Senior Member
If you are all still referring to the map I made, the UP Express still has a 25 minute travel time with those additional stops and electric locomotive trains with 4 Bi-Level coaches, however; stopping at every station on one service pattern would be too way long. Splitting the stations equally between two service patterns is the best way to serve as many stations/people as possible, while maintaining the competitive speed advantage that the service offers.
T3G
Senior Member
I think it's more than slightly melodramatic and disingenuous to suggest a service would crawl because it services intermediate stops.