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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I think if such an arrangement should come to pass, they would need to create a separate legal entity, jointly owned by bother carriers. Like the TTR, this would eliminate the 'landlord-tenant' relationship. Dispatching and rail control would have to be considered in light of the highly centralized RTC used by both railways.
 
Who does the maintenance, who does the RTC? CN RTC Edmonton or CPKC RTC Calgary?
If they are forced into co-production/route sharing, why not an independent third party? Say, Transport Canada, or VIA Rail, or someone new who isn't beholden to just one or the other?

They can barely get the directional running zone between Parry Sound and St Cloud to work without screwing each other over.
And yet despite that, the DRZs are working well enough that they talk every once in a while about expanding them. There is zero impetus to end the current arrangements.

Dan
 
If they are forced into co-production/route sharing, why not an independent third party? Say, Transport Canada, or VIA Rail, or someone new who isn't beholden to just one or the other?


And yet despite that, the DRZs are working well enough that they talk every once in a while about expanding them. There is zero impetus to end the current arrangements.

Dan

This is the thing. To date, Co-production is simply a voluntary agreement freely reached between the two railways, and then subject to some level of regulatory oversight to ensure that what has been agreed to meets some broad parameters of public interest.

The Ottawa Valley agreement fell apart partly because during the time of that agreement, both railways changed their attitude to whether the route was worth serving at all, especially when one looked . And CN went private in that period, doubtless leading to a very different spotlight being applied to what CN was getting and what it was asking.... and what CP wanted as well. The economics of overhead traffic not taking a "short cut" but taking the long route through Toronto

As for the other routes, DRZ's are being continued because the two railways see value as opposed to operating independently. If that were not so, they would doubtless be cancelled.

It may appear to folks on the ground that each railway is messing with the other, and at middle management levels that may be the culture.... but that doesn't mean they cannot reach agreement with each other at higher level. The lower level skirmishes may not be that meaningful in the bigger picture.

- Paul
 
Since this discussion always seems to polarise to "someone should just do it" pitted agains alarm about "expropriation" or legal principles of taking private property with or without just compensation, it's worth actually citing the law. ie the Canada Transportation Act. Of this, Division VI.1 is the most relevant..

Section 152.1 reads:
  • 152.1 (1) Whenever a public passenger service provider and a railway company are unable to agree in respect of any matter raised in the context of the negotiation of any agreement concerning the use of the railway company’s railway, land, equipment, facilities or services by the public passenger service provider or concerning the conditions, or the amount to be paid, for that use, the public passenger service provider may, after reasonable efforts to resolve the matter have been made, apply to the Agency to decide the matter.
Interestingly, the term "public passenger service provider" refers specifically to VIA Rail. (Section 87)

And, Section 152.2(2) reads

(2) In determining that amount, the Agency must take into consideration, among other things,
  • (a) the variable costs incurred by the railway company as a result of the public passenger service provider’s use of the railway company’s railway, land, equipment, facilities or services, including, but not limited to, its variable costs incurred to maintain safe operations and to avoid congestion and undue delay;
  • (b) the railway company’s cost of capital, based on a rate set by the Agency, applied to the net book value of the assets to be used by the public passenger service provider, less any amount to be paid by the public passenger service provider in respect of those assets;
  • (c) the cost of any improvements made by the railway company in relation to the public passenger service provider’s use of the railway company’s railway, land, equipment, facilities or services;
  • (d) a reasonable contribution towards the railway company’s constant costs; and
  • (e) the value of any benefits that would accrue to the railway company from any investment made by the public passenger service provider.
As to Co-Production, Section 139 reads
  • 139 (1) The Governor in Council may
    • (a) on the application of a railway company, a municipal government or any other interested person, or on the Governor in Council’s own initiative, and
    • (b) after any investigation that the Governor in Council considers necessary,
    • request two or more railway companies to consider the joint or common use of a right-of-way if the Governor in Council is of the opinion that its joint or common use may improve the efficiency and effectiveness of rail transport and would not unduly impair the commercial interests of the companies.
  • Marginal note:Order in Council for joint or common use of right-of-way
    (2) If the Governor in Council is satisfied that significant efficiencies and cost savings would result from joint or common use of the right-of-way by two or more railway companies and would not unduly impair the commercial interests of the companies, the Governor in Council may make any order for the joint or common use of the right-of-way that the Governor in Council considers necessary.
  • Marginal note:Compensation
    (3) The Governor in Council may also, by order, fix the amount of compensation to be paid in respect of the joint or common use of the right-of-way and any related work if the companies do not agree on the amount of that compensation.

There are other sections of the Act which prescribe how an arbitration is to be conducted in such a dispute - the short answer is, it may end up being "final offer selection" - a legal concept where the ruling body must pick one party's position or the other's, in total, but can't create its own solution.

So plainly, there is a certain amount of law already existing that plays on these situations..

I am not a lawyer and there are doubtless a million clauses and meanings and past rulings that bear on interpreting all this, but the point is - this law has been around for long enough that I can't see anyone challenging it on base Constitutional grounds. There have been past rulings applying this law and the parties (ie VIA, and the railways) have accepted the law as the basis for such decisions.

Imposing Coproduction or building a new intercity HxR or commuter line alongside existing freight trackage is a much broader and perhaps challenging thing to argue (as opposed to narrower issues where arbitration has been sought in the past eg CP's opposition to increasing the number of VIA trains per day through Smiths Falls). But the law is there and the process exists to deal with such things.

The question then becomes - why is this never done? I suspect it boils down to a lawyers' maxim - Never ask a questiion unless you are prepared to accept the answer. The CTA has made many decisions in the past - Index here - which doubtlessly set precedent particularly around rates of return on capital and on use of railway lines. The experts might well be able to predict the likely cost parameters that the CTA would impose, and may have a good idea of "worst case' rulings if they lose.

In the end, it doesn't totally matter what the law says today, if there is legislative will to change the law - but parliament can't just wave a wand and arbitrarily make things work as they would like. (Only Doug Ford can do that, it seems).

I don't expect any of this to trigger on any of the proposals we are discussing, and certainly not by an initiative of the current or future government.

My point is just - there is law, and a process, and it can be used if anyone in high places actually saw good reason for doing so, and was willing to fund whatever the final price might be.

- Paul
 
this law has been around for long enough that I can't see anyone challenging it on base Constitutional grounds.
Great summary, but this is a flawed assumption. A law is assumed constitutional until the SCOC says otherwise; longevity has little to do with. It is most likely the legislation has survived intact because no party has decided, or had an opportunity, to take a run at it. The Governor in Council (Cabinet) could choose to impose an order and one of the railways could choose to challenge it, likely based their unhappiness with the terms of the order. The legislation can't really be challenged until it is exercised.
 
Great summary, but this is a flawed assumption. A law is assumed constitutional until the SCOC says otherwise; longevity has little to do with. It is most likely the legislation has survived intact because no party has decided, or had an opportunity, to take a run at it. The Governor in Council (Cabinet) could choose to impose an order and one of the railways could choose to challenge it, likely based their unhappiness with the terms of the order. The legislation can't really be challenged until it is exercised.

On what basis would you imagine there being a challenge? I find that highly improbable.

Sure anything can be challenged; but that doesn't make success likely.

The industry wasn't happy about cabinet orders on timeliness of grain shipments or replacing all its tanker cars the last few years, but they complied nonetheless.
 
Great summary, but this is a flawed assumption. A law is assumed constitutional until the SCOC says otherwise; longevity has little to do with. It is most likely the legislation has survived intact because no party has decided, or had an opportunity, to take a run at it. The Governor in Council (Cabinet) could choose to impose an order and one of the railways could choose to challenge it, likely based their unhappiness with the terms of the order. The legislation can't really be challenged until it is exercised.

Quite true, but when one reads other sections of the Act, the CTA has been given and has exercised lots of similar powers over entry into and use of privately owned rail infrastructure eg interswitching and has set rates of return, tariffs, and so forth. These are of like impact on operations and financial matters, and these have never been challenged. So the precedent may already confirm the constitutionality of the law.

I suspect the past decisions in these areas have been fairly generous to the railways, and one supposes that rulings about commuter or intercity passenger would also be provident to them. If so, then I can appreciate why VIA and others have not been eager to push any buttons.

- Paul
 
On what basis would you imagine there being a challenge? I find that highly improbable.

Sure anything can be challenged; but that doesn't make success likely.

The industry wasn't happy about cabinet orders on timeliness of grain shipments or replacing all its tanker cars the last few years, but they complied nonetheless.

I can't even speculate. I was merely commenting on the fact that a law isn't unconstitutional until the Court says so, and the court can't wade in until a law is exercised. There is the concept of 'reference case' where the government can pose a legal question to the SCOC but, assuming the Court agrees to hear it, its ruling is not binding because it can only be a question of law, not fact.

Quite true, but when one reads other sections of the Act, the CTA has been given and has exercised lots of similar powers over entry into and use of privately owned rail infrastructure eg interswitching and has set rates of return, tariffs, and so forth. These are of like impact on operations and financial matters, and these have never been challenged. So the precedent may already confirm the constitutionality of the law.

I suspect the past decisions in these areas have been fairly generous to the railways, and one supposes that rulings about commuter or intercity passenger would also be provident to them. If so, then I can appreciate why VIA and others have not been eager to push any buttons.

- Paul
Whether a challenge to one piece section of law impacts on another is unknown.

Being a Crown Corporation, I'm not sure how much latitude VIA would have to challenge the government.
 
On the 21st of May a third round trip to Niagara Falls will be reinstated, so far I don’t see any other major changes to other lines coming but I could be wrong.

After all the crowding last year, I'm really surprised not to see a 4th round trip.
 
Yes. Apparently it’s a lot of work to remove. So they’ll stay until other work comes up that necessitates the car being removed from service for an extended period of time.
Wonder will they patch the holes? I try to sit at the first seat at the top floor to avoid the stupid barriers
 

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