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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

You are of course right that 1 single train isn't much but it will serve as an example of the technology for others to reference.

The 1 lone train is, however, a big deal in that it is built by Stadler, one of the world's biggest train manufacturers and this is going to be quickly followed by Siemens. This mean 3 of the biggest producers are in the hydrogen game lending to it's long term viability and very much an indication of where train technology is headed. The development of new technology requires mega-bucks which manufacturers would not invest in unless they see the long-term potential. Ditto for some of the largest car companies...…… Toyota and Hyundai. Both are spending very little on battery technology for their future autos and nearly all near time, research, and money on hydrogen
 
One thing I like is that all hydrogen trains are hybrids by default -- The hydrogen drivetrains always have a battery. Any improvements in that state of art also applies to other kinds of battery trains and battery-hibrids (like battery locomotive+diesel dual separate locomotive combination that BNSF is testing in 2020). Hydrogen doesn't have the power nor density to do the full horsepower for full throttle acceleration, so it has to recharge/drain upon battery.

Either way, I still believe in conventional catenary being necessary for the core GO Expansion (current inner Metrolinx-purchased track).
 
5 says ago Science Digest reported a new discovery by a team of hydrogen scientists in Houston that will have worldwide implications which could completely revolutionize our energy future. The team has discovered a way to create hydrogen power from seawater.

This is a game changer. So far all hydrogen production has had to come from fresh water due to the sodium in seawater. To us that may not seem like a big deal but, as with so many things, Canadians are spoiled but don't appreciate it. We take fresh water for granted because we have more than we know what to do with. Of course in 90% of the planet, fresh water is precious commodity. What little countries do have, that isn't polluted, goes towards human consumption, industry, and agriculture leaving little else for hydrogen. This discovery beings a clean energy source to 95% of the planet.

Think about it...…………..in just the last year hydrogen discoveries have led to the ability to create it from capped oil wells and oil sands and now from saltwater. This exemplifies the truly dizzying rate of hydrogen advancements and how we are quickly turning to a hydrogen based economy.
 
ssiguy2 said:
5 says ago Science Digest reported a new discovery by a team of hydrogen scientists in Houston that will have worldwide implications which could completely revolutionize our energy future. The team has discovered a way to create hydrogen power from seawater.

This is a game changer. So far all hydrogen production has had to come from fresh water due to the sodium in seawater. To us that may not seem like a big deal but, as with so many things, Canadians are spoiled but don't appreciate it. We take fresh water for granted because we have more than we know what to do with. Of course in 90% of the planet, fresh water is precious commodity. What little countries do have, that isn't polluted, goes towards human consumption, industry, and agriculture leaving little else for hydrogen. This discovery beings a clean energy source to 95% of the planet.

Think about it...…………..in just the last year hydrogen discoveries have led to the ability to create it from capped oil wells and oil sands and now from saltwater. This exemplifies the truly dizzying rate of hydrogen advancements and how we are quickly turning to a hydrogen based economy.
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That's a nice development, but not as dramatic as it may look, because:

1) The main problem with hydrogen energetics remain in place: the energy to produce hydrogen in the first place must come from somewhere. As long as fossil fuels make > 50% of the total energy balance, hydrogen production will remain depenent on fossil fuels.

They discovered corrosion-resistant electrodes that can be used for the electrolysis of seawater, but the bulk of industrial hydrogen isn't produced by electrolysis at all as of today. The bulk of hydrogen comes from the natural gas conversion, and that process produces carbon dioxide.

2) It should be noted that water is regenerated in the fuel cells when the hydrogen is consumed. If the shortage of fresh water was the main hurdle for hydrogen energetics, then for the majority of applications, water produced when the cells operate could be reused at the hydrogen plants.
 
Rainforest said:
That's a nice development, but not as dramatic as it may look, because:

1) The main problem with hydrogen energetics remain in place: the energy to produce hydrogen in the first place must come from somewhere. As long as fossil fuels make > 50% of the total energy balance, hydrogen production will remain depenent on fossil fuels.

They discovered corrosion-resistant electrodes that can be used for the electrolysis of seawater, but the bulk of industrial hydrogen isn't produced by electrolysis at all as of today. The bulk of hydrogen comes from the natural gas conversion, and that process produces carbon dioxide.

2) It should be noted that water is regenerated in the fuel cells when the hydrogen is consumed. If the shortage of fresh water was the main hurdle for hydrogen energetics, then for the majority of applications, water produced when the cells operate could be reused at the hydrogen plants.
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Argh

This hydrogen discussion drives me mad, but I'll observe that the entire fuel cycle discussion is a red herring. The moment we want hydrogen production at scale nuclear reactors are already quite capable or churning out massive quantities of both desalinated water and usable hydrogen. This aspect is so far from a barrier to hydrogen use as to be a non-issue.
 
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As I have stated before I do NOT think hydrogen is the best option for RER but rather battery with selected catenary stations for recharging allowing for non-stop all day RER service. For longer commuter services hydrogen is the logical long term option.

Germany,, in it's bid to completely decarbonize it's energy production and transportation systems, is planning on phasing OUT natural gas. Natural gas is not way shape or form a clean energy supply but rather just a cleaER one than coal or oil which says precious little. Save BC, everyone else on the planet knows it. This is why all their hydrogen supply will be via electroyisis based.
 
Siemens receive an order for a dual-mode Vectron, which in theory could form the basis for a dual mode Charger.
www.railwaygazette.com

First order for Vectron Dual Mode brings 'the best of two worlds'

GERMANY: Railsystems RP has become the first customer for Siemens Mobility's Vectron Dual Mode electro-diesel locomotive, with an order announced on November 18 for two to be delivered at the end of 2020. Announced at InnoTrans 2018 and unveiled at the manufacturer's München-Allach plant in...
www.railwaygazette.com www.railwaygazette.com
 
This is a very good start for Germany's decarbonization but isn't relevant to Canada or Toronto. Canada has just one small catenary train system in Montreal while most of Germany's already is.
 
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cplchanb said:
Skip to 4:30 where he clearly states that they are looking to replace diesel
Also at 9:02 and pretty much everything afterwards is really interesting.

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Has there been any progress on the tender? When is it expected to close and decision made?
 
^ No update in the latest Metrolink board report. It's in the RFP stage and I don't think the timeline has changed. They'll announce a winner in the spring of 2020 so we'll see if that holds.
 
When the winner of the bid is announced will it include delivery of the trains? I imagine it will state what kind of trains they want and propulsion ie single or double level or catenary or battery but will the manufacturer also be included in the bid?

If they, for example, decide on the bidder that proposes single level battery trains will that bid include which manufacturer of trains as well? Two different manufacturers of battery-single level trains still vary in recharge times, top speeds, de/acceleration, battery life and replacement costs, how many catenary recharging stations will be needed, train length and width, etc which all effect operational reliability, capacity, and overall costs.

By combining the 2 key elements of both the operator and manufacturer it would save precious time in terms of not having to put the train bid out to tender as that decision would have already been made.
 
ssiguy2 said:
When the winner of the bid is announced will it include delivery of the trains? I imagine it will state what kind of trains they want and propulsion ie single or double level or catenary or battery but will the manufacturer also be included in the bid?

If they, for example, decide on the bidder that proposes single level battery trains will that bid include which manufacturer of trains as well? Two different manufacturers of battery-single level trains still vary in recharge times, top speeds, de/acceleration, battery life and replacement costs, how many catenary recharging stations will be needed, train length and width, etc which all effect operational reliability, capacity, and overall costs.

By combining the 2 key elements of both the operator and manufacturer it would save precious time in terms of not having to put the train bid out to tender as that decision would have already been made.
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Have you ever bought a car by picking a brand of body and then putting the drive train up for bids?

There is enough careful design and engineering in matching the power components to the railcar that a vendor would want to make this decision themselves. That’s what consortiums (sp?) are for. There may be patent or intellectual property aspects of the components that a component vendor may not want to share with all potential product users. Only when they have a serious partner will that get shared.

ML’s spec may well call for certain components or parameters to be used....for instance they may predetermine that a standard component (such as an air compressor or traction motor, which may be ML’s fleet standard). But unlikely they would pick a carbody and then look at propulsion competitively. Unless they were repowering existing fleet, like UPE stock for instance.

It’s not the same as popping a new video card in your PC.

- Paul
 
Couple of new developments.

Belgium is going to be studying the possibility of using either hydrogen or battery trains being deployed to decarbonize their entire rail network by 2030. Interestingly, catenary systems are widespread in Belgium but they are not being considered due to being to expensive and time consuming to build.

China has announced that it has awarded the contract to build their vehicles for the 17km Foshan LRT line which is currently winding up construction to be up and running by mid-2020, The vehicles will be hydrogen using Canada's Ballard hydrogen technology. This will be the 2nd hydrogen powered tram line in China since the 8km Qingdao line opened in 2015.
 
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