GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[Allandale25]

Will be interesting to see when the hydrogen feasibility study is released. It was mentioned at the conference that it would be done in December 2017.

 

[torontocolin]

To use Hydrail on UPX, Alstom would have to not only make a Hydrail train, they'd have to make a Hydrail train with the right door alignment for the UPX, so it's not like they could just hand over a prototype tomorrow. By the time they had one ready to go, the UPX would (hopefully) be almost electrified. The obvious answer to me is Richmond Hill. Metrolinx could use the diesel-pulled bilevels for peak service, but use a smaller prototype Hydrail train for off-peak service in order to offer two-way all day service.

Of course, it's not that simple. I'm not nearly as confident that Alstom would just hand over a cutting edge prototype vehicle like that. And even if they did, GO has operator contracts that might preclude using it.

 

[gweed123]

To use Hydrail on UPX, Alstom would have to not only make a Hydrail train, they'd have to make a Hydrail train with the right door alignment for the UPX, so it's not like they could just hand over a prototype tomorrow. By the time they had one ready to go, the UPX would (hopefully) be almost electrified. The obvious answer to me is Richmond Hill. Metrolinx could use the diesel-pulled bilevels for peak service, but use a smaller prototype Hydrail train for off-peak service in order to offer two-way all day service.

Of course, it's not that simple. I'm not nearly as confident that Alstom would just hand over a cutting edge prototype vehicle like that. And even if they did, GO has operator contracts that might preclude using it.

It could be a business advantage for Alstom to do that though, since GO's coaches are manufactured exclusively by one of their biggest rivals. If they can take a bite out of that, not only do they get themselves a bigger piece of the North American pie, but they potentially take away some of Bombardier's. A few fewer Bombardier GO coaches in exchange for a few more Alstom trains?

 

[steveintoronto]

anything that incents ML to rest on its oars with stringing wire is counterproductive

That point can't be overstated. There's probably utility for Hydrail, but not as an excuse to not string catenary where needed.

Or implement a 'jitney' service where there isn't service at present.....Brampton-Orangeville for instance.

Depending on the location of the manufacturer's assembly operation for servicing, that might be very close to opportune. Another would be Guelph to Guelph Junction and on to Milton, CP's co-operation pending. I don't know if the slots still exist from when GO used Guelph Junction for layover, but Guelph itself would bend over backwards to accommodate such a service. Guelph Hydro long ago proposed a free recharging facility for electric cars downtown. As per a letter with Liz Sandals forwarded to and replied by Bruce McQuaig, such was acknowledged as being valuable for an operation on GJR (wholly owned by Guelph). The advantage of using Guelph would be a much larger population base (130,000 and growing fast). There's also the Guelph to Cambridge line, Cambridge would be all for using that, but it's in terrible shape. GJR remains a perfect test track, distance for servicing besides.

 

[steveintoronto]

It could be a business advantage for Alstom to do that though, since GO's coaches are manufactured exclusively by one of their biggest rivals. If they can take a bite out of that, not only do they get themselves a bigger piece of the North American pie, but they potentially take away some of Bombardier's. A few fewer Bombardier GO coaches in exchange for a few more Alstom trains?

The business leverage potential is immense.

I may quibble with a few points as to detail, but your overall gist captures much more than this particular instance.

It has crossed my mind more than a few times that Alstom (and BBD and/or CRRC really won't like this, but hey...) purchase or lease the Downsview factory if it becomes available sooner than later. Insertion onto the Metrolinx tracks by virtue of the spur makes it perfect for testing in actual operation, and getting service done almost immediately when needed.

A demonstrator running between scheduled regular runs (still limited at this time) from say, Union to York University as a supplementary shuttle would make a lot of sense.

More on this later, I'll wait to see what other suggestions are made in this string. We're all on the same page, just different paragraphs.

The obvious answer to me is Richmond Hill.

Another really good one! In fact, if that was extended as a loop...a precursor to...dare I say it?...SmartTrack...then it could run RH via Union to York University (or next major stop). This would allow many opportunities to be emergency serviced until such time as Alstom could set-up a more permanent depot for the purpose.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Article states what I wondered about - that Hydrail is under consideration for Ottawa too. This would be the Trillium, which already uses the Lint platform. They would have to figure out what to do with the six newish diesel rigs, but I presume Alstom would swap or possibly even convert them at some point in order to push the technology along. (Apologies if this was already known and I missed it.)

 

[steveintoronto]

Article states what I wondered about - that Hydrail is under consideration for Ottawa too. This would be the Trillium, which already uses the Lint platform. They would have to figure out what to do with the six newish diesel rigs, but I presume Alstom would swap or possibly even convert them at some point in order to push the technology along. (Apologies if this was already known and I missed it.)

Interesting catch! I wondered what you were referring to until re-reading the Rail Engineer article:
https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/01/05/hydrail-comes-of-age/

For example, Canada’s fleet of 3,000 locomotives consumes two billion tonnes of diesel to produce six million tonnes of CO2 and 100 thousand tonnes of pollutants that are hazardous to health. This is one of the reasons why Transport Canada has funded a study into the feasibility of using Hydrail vehicles for commuter trains in Ottawa and Toronto.

That may have been a slip, I can find no other reference elsewhere, but it would make immense sense since their techs and engineers would be there already nurse the prototype for North Am.

See:
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/bombardier-shopping-downsview-airport-facility.28218/page-2 my most recent post there.

Post Script: I've found further reference to Ottawa, but it's supposition:
https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Committee/421/FINA/Brief/BR8404226/br-external/Tech-KOInc-e.pdf

View attachment upload_2018-1-15_22-17-45.png

 

[steveintoronto]

Sound familiar?

[...]
In November 2014, Vivarail purchased 150 driving motor cars and 300 carriages of London Underground D78 Stock, which has been replaced by S Stock before the end of their lifespan, so that the subsurface lines (Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan) could have a common rolling stock fleet compatible with a new ATO system. The stated purpose of the D-train is to ameliorate a perceived shortage of affordable, modern rolling stock on Britain's regional rail routes, resulting from the slow pace of electrification.[6]

Overview
In the conversion programme, the company plans to re-use the aluminium bodyshells, traction motors and bogies from the D78 units, and fit them out with new diesel engines and interiors. Rail Magazine reports that each power car will have two underfloor engine-generator sets. The 3.2 litre, five cylinder diesel engines will be made by Ford in South Africa. Vivarail claims that fuel consumption will be around 0.5 litre per car per mile. This is about half the fuel consumption of a Pacer. Maximum speed will be 60 mph (97 km/h).[7]

The first D78 units were delivered to Vivarail on 19 January 2015. A single car prototype was produced and ran on Vivarail's 2.5-mile (4.0 km) test track in summer 2015.

[...]

Advantages and disadvantages
The proposal has been criticised by the Rail Maritime and Transport Union as a scheme to provide "second-hand" trains to the region instead of new stock.[12] Nevertheless, their low cost allows for more to be ordered and they were built and will be upgraded in Britain, unlike most new stock. They are also built of aluminium, making them highly resistant to corrosion. Having undergone recent major refurbishment, they are also in good condition[verification needed] and have relatively new bogies. The D-Train meets all current standards up to and including the 2020 PRM-TSI regulations[verification needed], which the Pacer railbuses do not. The trains are more environmentally friendly, due to stop-start diesel engine technology, light-weight build and up-cycling of the majority of the cars.[verification needed] The upgrading will also take a much shorter time than would be the case of planning and building trains from scratch[verification needed], as well as being roughly a third of the price.[verification needed]
[...]

The British Rail Class 230 or D-train is a diesel electric multiple unit being built by Vivarail for the British rail network. The units are being converted from London Underground D78 Stock, first built in 1980 by Metro Cammell.

It is proposed to run 75 units of two or three cars per unit.[1][2] They will become known as Class 230 under TOPS.[3] A prototype was produced for testing and accreditation in August 2015, and the type was planned to enter passenger service in 2016.[4] They were to be tested in mainline service on the Coventry to Nuneaton Line.[5]
[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_230

Vids:

More here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Vivarail

Needless to say, instead of the diesel module under the driving cars, a fuel cell can be installed. Units can be run on battery power alone, in a hybrid with diesel motor or fuel cell, or a tribrid of all three for testing purposes.

Note the boarding height, same as UPX! And more doors per length. (Eight doors per carriage, four each side)

Manufacturer Metro Cammell
Vivarail (conversion)
Constructed 1979–1983
Converted:
2015–
Number built 1 trainset (2nd half complete)
Formation 2 or 3 cars per trainset
Fleet numbers 230001-230002
Specifications
Car body construction Aluminium
Car length Driving Motor:
18.37 m (60 ft 3 in)
Other:
18.12 m (59 ft 5 in)
Width 2.85 m (9 ft 4 in)
Maximum speed 60 mph (97 km/h)
Prime mover(s) Ford Duratorq
Power output 400 hp (300 kW) per car
Safety system(s) AWS, TPWS
Coupling system Wedgelock

Much more here:
http://vivarail.co.uk/

 

[ssiguy2]

[QUOTE="torontocolin, post: 1295650, member: 69939

Of course, it's not that simple. I'm not nearly as confident that Alstom would just hand over a cutting edge prototype vehicle like that. [/QUOTE]

I strongly disagree. I bet Alstom would give their left nut at the prospect of giving Toronto a loaner. It would showcase the technology in a big NA city which is crucial.

Hydrail will NOT be much of a big deal in Europe except on small local routes. The reality is that most of the European rail systems are already electrified negating one of the biggest advantages of the system itself..........it provides electrical service without the very costly expense of building the overhead electrical infrastructure. Conversely very few commuter rail-type services in NA are electric which holds back some of their success. They are driven by slower, louder, and much more polluting diesel but the systems don't have the massive funds needed to electrify the system, a true catch-22.

NA will be ground zero for Hydrail applications and I bet Alstom would salivate at the prospect of getting their foot in the door before other the other big manufacturers create their own Hydrail trains and Toronto would be the big city where Alstom could showcase their technology and many application across the continent. The fact that a Miss. company is a world leader in hydrogen technology could help spawn a new and 21st century industry in the province also makes it politically palatable and could even get federal largess to help the industry get off the ground.

 

[raptor]

Alstom wins the Europe 1 Mobility Trophy for its hydrogen train

 

[dowlingm]

Sound familiar?

Yes. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...varail-releases-report-into-d-train-fire.html

 

[jcam]

UP may not be the ideal first application for hydrail - anything that incents ML to rest on its oars with stringing wire is counterproductive. The Kitchener line needs wires - at least to Bramalea - and not using them for UP just refuces the value gained from that investment.

But I would agree with say Niagara, as it's peripheral and not so high priority for wires, and initial loads may be smaller. Or implement a 'jitney' service where there isn't service at present.....Brampton-Orangeville for instance.

- Paul

Or Bolton-Mount Dennis.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Or Bowmanville to Whitby?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Do we have any word on how soon the RER rolling stock will be selected?

 

[mdrejhon]

Hydrail could work for a StCat/Niagara-Hamilton allday 2way rail shuttle.

Lewis yard has room for hydrogen generating plants, and extra room for hydrail trainset storage.

Since there is no plan to electrify this even thru 2041, this would be fine.

Or just use the UPX DMUs, once UPX is electrified.