GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[reaperexpress]

The other vaccilation that (mis)informed this plan was the service plan for Bowmanville, which at times has on the one hand been only five or so peak direction only trains, and at other times has been presented as a full extension of LSE 2WAD with the minimum headways.

A bypass around the existing station makes a lot of sense if the peak only service is the end plan.... just interleave these trains with the Oshawa service and maybe make them express at some point towards Union.

A bypass also makes sense if you envision a 2WAD model where not all trains need to go all the way to Bowmanville, Maybe every second train terminates at Oshawa using the existing station. If headways reduce to 15 or 10 minutes, this is service as good or better than today to the "old" station and probably adequate service for downtown Oshawa and points east of there. Bowmanville-Newcastle is developing density but not to the extent of points further west.

Running the full build LSE around those tight curves and out to Bowmanville just seems like a desperate solution to fulfill all needs. And a desperate way to avoid the embarassment of having rebuilt Oshawa's depot only to move out of it.

Even today, every third peak-period train starts at Whitby instead of Oshawa because Oshawa only has enough capacity to turn back 4 trains per hour.

In a future with a branch to Bowmanville I could see 4 trains per hour travelling to Oshawa Centre (some of which continue to Bowmanville), while up to 4 additional trains per hour terminate at the existing Oshawa station.

Oh, and the whole idea was to have a transfer point to VIA....but Alto will not stop there, so that ship is sailing anyways.

- Paul

Bypassing the current Oshawa station and losing the connection to Via would't necessarily be an issue because that connection could alternatively be provided at any other Lakeshore East station. I think Pickering or Ajax would be good candidates.

 

[robmausser]

I personally do not see the speed restriction being such a big deal that people are making it out to be here. The train will have to slow down to enter Oshawa GO station anyways, and also accelerate out of it to leave east.

Having a slow, tight curve in the middle of a rail section with high speed is one thing, but it will add minimal difference right next to a station that already the train would have been slowing down to stop at anyways.

Not to mention the downtown Oshawa station isn't far off from after the bridge as well.

I think its fine and will be worth not creating a branch line situation like Hamilton GO/West Harbour GO

 

[crs1026]

I personally do not see the speed restriction being such a big deal that people are making it out to be here. The train will have to slow down to enter Oshawa GO station anyways, and also accelerate out of it to leave east.

Having a slow, tight curve in the middle of a rail section with high speed is one thing, but it will add minimal difference right next to a station that already the train would have been slowing down to stop at anyways.

Not to mention the downtown Oshawa station isn't far off from after the bridge as well.

I think its fine and will be worth not creating a branch line situation like Hamilton GO/West Harbour GO

I can't think of another spot in the GO network where this degree of speed restriction is being accepted. Bayview-West Harbour has 25 mph restrictions, where this one may be as low as 15 mph, and for close to a mile.

The system should be designed such that Run 8 acceleration is possible from the platform onwards. This falls way short of that.

I'm sure glad you weren't on the team designing the Finch LRT - or were you? (Just kidding)

- Paul

 

[Bojaxs]

I personally do not see the speed restriction being such a big deal that people are making it out to be here. The train will have to slow down to enter Oshawa GO station anyways, and also accelerate out of it to leave east.

Having a slow, tight curve in the middle of a rail section with high speed is one thing, but it will add minimal difference right next to a station that already the train would have been slowing down to stop at anyways.

Not to mention the downtown Oshawa station isn't far off from after the bridge as well.

I think its fine and will be worth not creating a branch line situation like Hamilton GO/West Harbour GO

Typical Ontario transit mentality.

"It's fine to sacrifice speed for better connectivity."

What's the point of extending the LSE GO line to Bowmanville if it'll be faster to just drive to Oshawa GO and ride it from there?

 

[reaperexpress]

I personally do not see the speed restriction being such a big deal that people are making it out to be here. The train will have to slow down to enter Oshawa GO station anyways, and also accelerate out of it to leave east.

Having a slow, tight curve in the middle of a rail section with high speed is one thing, but it will add minimal difference right next to a station that already the train would have been slowing down to stop at anyways.

Not to mention the downtown Oshawa station isn't far off from after the bridge as well.

I think its fine and will be worth not creating a branch line situation like Hamilton GO/West Harbour GO

GO trains can enter platforms at nearly 100 km/h and still stop at the end (a distance of about 320 metres) and it's pretty common for them to enter going 70-80. Adding a 15 mph (24 km/h) restriction for 2300 metres is an enormous time penalty regardless of where it is relative to stations.

An electric regional train can accelerate to 75 km/h WITHIN the station:

The distance from Oshawa to Thornton Corners is about 1400 metres (which would be by far the closest spacing on the network).

Here's a clip where I compare the speed of O-Train Line 2 (with a 55 km/h limit) and the REM (with a 100 km/h limit) with a stop spacing of about 1.5 km (1450m for O-Train, 1504 for REM).

The REM trains reaches 85 km/h and AVERAGES 55 km/h between those stations. The O-Train takes 49% longer, primarily due to the 25 km/h limit in stations and 50-55 km/h limits between stations.

Now just imagine how slow the O-Train would be if the 25 km/h speed limit also applied between stations! Actually you don't need to imagine, because you can easily calculate that 1500m at 25 km/h is 216 seconds. So even with infinite acceleration and deceleration, the (G)O Train would take 118% longer than the REM. And that's not the whole slow zone either - the speed restriction will continue for another 500 metres beyond the station, plus the length of the train, so about another 850 metres.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't disagree with any of this, but it seems that MX was trying to minimize the disruption of the commuters coming by car. I disagree with it, but I see why they chose that option. They need to start building this for real, though.

 

[Allandale25]

GO trains can enter platforms at nearly 100 km/h and still stop at the end (a distance of about 320 metres) and it's pretty common for them to enter going 70-80. Adding a 15 mph (24 km/h) restriction for 2300 metres is an enormous time penalty regardless of where it is relative to stations.

An electric regional train can accelerate to 75 km/h WITHIN the station:

The distance from Oshawa to Thornton Corners is about 1400 metres (which would be by far the closest spacing on the network).
View attachment 707042

Here's a clip where I compare the speed of O-Train Line 2 (with a 55 km/h limit) and the REM (with a 100 km/h limit) with a stop spacing of about 1.5 km (1450m for O-Train, 1504 for REM).

The REM trains reaches 85 km/h and AVERAGES 55 km/h between those stations. The O-Train takes 49% longer, primarily due to the 25 km/h limit in stations and 50-55 km/h limits between stations.

Now just imagine how slow the O-Train would be if the 25 km/h speed limit also applied between stations! Actually you don't need to imagine, because you can easily calculate that 1500m at 25 km/h is 216 seconds. So even with infinite acceleration and deceleration, the (G)O Train would take 118% longer than the REM. And that's not the whole slow zone either - the speed restriction will continue for another 500 metres beyond the station, plus the length of the train, so about another 850 metres.

Is it also going to have the tightest curve on the system? How does it compare to the Richmond Hill Line when it joins the LSE/ST Like at the Don River area?

 

[reaperexpress]

Is it also going to have the tightest curve on the system? How does it compare to the Richmond Hill Line when it joins the LSE/ST Like at the Don River area?

Well according to OpenRailwayMap.org that curve has a 25 mph speed limit (40 km/h). Which actually seems pretty fast for such a tight curve. Are there any Richmond Hill line riders here who could check the actual speed? (Or Transee Pro subscribers)

According to Google Earth, the radius seems to be around 165 metres.

The curve entering Ottawa station is much larger radius

yet its speed limit is also apparently 25 mph (40 km/h).

It looks like the radii on the Bowmanville alignment would be about the same as the curve at the bottom of the Don.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Well according to OpenRailwayMap.org that curve has a 25 mph speed limit (40 km/h). Which actually seems pretty fast for such a tight curve. Are there any Richmond Hill line riders here who could check the actual speed? (Or Transee Pro subscribers)
View attachment 707120

According to Google Earth, the radius seems to be around 165 metres.
View attachment 707119

The curve entering Ottawa station is much larger radius
View attachment 707124

yet its speed limit is also apparently 25 mph (40 km/h).
View attachment 707123

It looks like the radii on the Bowmanville alignment would be about the same as the curve at the bottom of the Don.
View attachment 707118
View attachment 707117

Great analysis. One thing to consider on the Bowmanville Extension is that the curve is not just a curve, but a pretty significant grade change. Curve + grade is not super ideal for trains to navigate.

 

[Allandale25]

Great analysis. One thing to consider on the Bowmanville Extension is that the curve is not just a curve, but a pretty significant grade change. Curve + grade is not super ideal for trains to navigate.

Now I'm curious what the grade comparison is for Don and Oshawa

 

[Bojaxs]

Great analysis. One thing to consider on the Bowmanville Extension is that the curve is not just a curve, but a pretty significant grade change. Curve + grade is not super ideal for trains to navigate.

This is the problem with the UPX approaching and leaving Pearson, is it not?

 

[reaperexpress]

Now I'm curious what the grade comparison is for Don and Oshawa

You should download Google Earth Pro then, it's free.

 

[lastcommodore]

This is the problem with the UPX approaching and leaving Pearson, is it not?

Yep. I dont think that flyover counts as mainline rail, so I dont think it can qualify for the title of tightest mainline rail, but it is tighter than all the examples posted above at a whopping 130m radius by my satellite guessery

I'm a bit too young in the transit space to know the debate with UPX when it was being built, but it surprises me they didn't dig a new underpass under the hwy for a wider turn radius.

 

[smallspy]

Yep. I dont think that flyover counts as mainline rail,....

It shares tracks with other "mainline rail" trains, so yes, it comes under the same regulatory regime.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

My recollection is that the troubles that emerged with the UP spur causing speed restrictions relate to the style of plinths and fasteners used as much as the absolute curvature. I don’t know if that concern has been resolved since.

- Paul