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GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

If the Scarborough Junction grade separation for the second Stouffville line track is not built will the Stouffville line use the two north tracks and the Lakeshore East line use the two south tracks in the corridor? If both lines are running 2-way 15-minute service will this configuration allow for a LSE express train? Will there still be capacity available for VIA?
Three tracks still allow for express trains + VIA. I don't know why the 4-track configuration would be a concern.

Or what the big deal about the lack of a rail flyover is. If they can do it without ... why not. There's been zero indication that service would be impacted, outside of the fan groups.
 
Three tracks still allow for express trains + VIA. I don't know why the 4-track configuration would be a concern.

Or what the big deal about the lack of a rail flyover is. If they can do it without ... why not. There's been zero indication that service would be impacted, outside of the fan groups.
I didn't know if the 15-minute service on the Stouffville line "consumed" too much of the 3rd and 4th tracks for the LSE to run an express on top of 15-minute service plus VIA.
 
Three tracks still allow for express trains + VIA. I don't know why the 4-track configuration would be a concern.

Or what the big deal about the lack of a rail flyover is. If they can do it without ... why not. There's been zero indication that service would be impacted, outside of the fan groups.
The disappointment always seemed like it was over the death of the nice true 6-track arrangement with the good cross-platform transfers at East Harbour. Is it a game of telephone that's morphed it into a service-prohibitive thing?
 
I racked my brain and hunted my files in search of the questionable bridge de-scoping document that I remembered, without success - but I did recall a little more clearly how I noticed it. I believe it may be in some report sent to someone (Toronto City Council? A subcommittee? Community Council?) dealing with an adjacent property (possibly expropriation or land severance) and a drawing was attached which showed only a 2-track structure where the previous plans had been 3 or more. I'm not going to look further, either it is gone or I have more vivid nightmares than I realise :) . But from my best recollections I do believe it related to the LSE plans east of Guildwood.

In any event - earlier documentation re the LSE track expansion clearly specified that the LSE grade separations would be built to hold 3 tracks with protection for a fourth track. The entire project has been deferred and descoped, and much of the original documentation has been scrubbed from the ML and IO web sites. Most recently, a City of Toronto report indicates that ML has provided the City with a 60% design for these grade separations. I do not have any means to pry this out of the City, likely would take a FOI request which is beyond my means. The point being - LSE is a pretty important part of the GO Expansion project, and it's a poor place to pinch pennies, if in fact that is happening.

As to the Scarborough flyover - this has been well discussed here previously. A flat junction cannot route trains to and from the two branching routes (LSE and Stouffville) without causing a great deal of routing conflicts. Routing conflicts are not just a single-point thing, because the approach zones (whether fixed or virtual blocks) lead to other trains receiving restrictive signal indications from the time the crossover route is lined until the crossing-over train has cleared. So trains at a distance will be slowed whenever there is a routing conflict. ML will have done the math thru simulations etc on how frequent this will happen and how much disruption there will be. But as a spectator, my layperson's guesstimate would be...... lots. I would have considered the flyover a very prudent investment. But we will see eventually.

So, if I have been crying wolf - I apologise. But I for one will be watching this one.

- Paul
 
I racked my brain and hunted my files in search of the questionable bridge de-scoping document that I remembered, without success - but I did recall a little more clearly how I noticed it. I believe it may be in some report sent to someone (Toronto City Council? A subcommittee? Community Council?) dealing with an adjacent property (possibly expropriation or land severance) and a drawing was attached which showed only a 2-track structure where the previous plans had been 3 or more. I'm not going to look further, either it is gone or I have more vivid nightmares than I realise :) . But from my best recollections I do believe it related to the LSE plans east of Guildwood.

In any event - earlier documentation re the LSE track expansion clearly specified that the LSE grade separations would be built to hold 3 tracks with protection for a fourth track. The entire project has been deferred and descoped, and much of the original documentation has been scrubbed from the ML and IO web sites. Most recently, a City of Toronto report indicates that ML has provided the City with a 60% design for these grade separations. I do not have any means to pry this out of the City, likely would take a FOI request which is beyond my means. The point being - LSE is a pretty important part of the GO Expansion project, and it's a poor place to pinch pennies, if in fact that is happening.

As to the Scarborough flyover - this has been well discussed here previously. A flat junction cannot route trains to and from the two branching routes (LSE and Stouffville) without causing a great deal of routing conflicts. Routing conflicts are not just a single-point thing, because the approach zones (whether fixed or virtual blocks) lead to other trains receiving restrictive signal indications from the time the crossover route is lined until the crossing-over train has cleared. So trains at a distance will be slowed whenever there is a routing conflict. ML will have done the math thru simulations etc on how frequent this will happen and how much disruption there will be. But as a spectator, my layperson's guesstimate would be...... lots. I would have considered the flyover a very prudent investment. But we will see eventually.

So, if I have been crying wolf - I apologise. But I for one will be watching this one.

- Paul

I'm still working on what the scope looks like................but I did some digging on timing............

The GO Expansion Grade Separations for the Scarborough crossings of the LSE are currently programmed for 2026-2029.
 
I didn't know if the 15-minute service on the Stouffville line "consumed" too much of the 3rd and 4th tracks for the LSE to run an express on top of 15-minute service plus VIA.
With the way the signalling system is currently configured on the Kingston Sub, they can run 90mph trains every 5 minutes or so.

That's enough capacity for the immediate future, but depending on which version of the plans they are going to be using they will start to bump into the limits of what the signalling system is currently capable of in several years.

Dan
 
Bringing this old post forward since it's relevant:
Verster is a master when it comes to spin, as one needs to be to be CEO of such a large organisation. He describes the decision to cancel the Scarborough Junction Grade Separation as a clever change which will allow more stopping trains at East Harbour. Note: it's not an increase in service, it's just that express trains will now also stop at East Harbour in addition to local trains. This is made possible solely by the addition of a third platform, which could have been done regardless of whether Scarborough Junction is grade separated.

That said, he's clearly very passionate about bringing massively improved rail service within the forseeable future and his clever political strategies will definitely benefit us overall.

Here's my take at illustrating the changes he described: no more grade separation at Scarborough Junction, and an extra platform at East Harbour.
View attachment 313257
View attachment 313255

Rather than a single quad-tracked line with services sorted by speed, there are now a pair of double-tracked lines. This creates a problem for express trains, since they can no longer overtake local trains. This is the real reason that Verster's new plan has express trains stopping at East Harbour: they're stuck behind locals anyway so they might as well stop.

On the Lakeshore corridor, there is a pre-existing triple-track segment between Scarborough Jct and Guildwood, so there's plenty of room for peak-direction express services to overtake locals. But if we want express service all day in both directions, we're in trouble. In the absence of passing tracks (e.g counter-peak), the speed of the express services is dictated by the frequency of local service. With local service every 15 minutes, express services can only be about 7 minutes faster than the local. I'm assuming a minimum scheduled separation of 4 minutes, based on the schedules here in the Netherlands. So the express departs 11 minutes behind the local, and by the end of the shared segment it's 4 minutes behind.
View attachment 313258

Even with moving-block signaling which allows trains as close as 60 seconds, a single shared track would still only allow the express to be 9 minutes faster than the local. But realistically we'd want express services to skip 5 or 6 stops between Union and Pickering, which would make them 10 to 12 minutes faster than the locals. And VIA trains are even faster still.

So if we want all-day express service in both directions, we need to build some additional passing opportunities. The cheapest option would be to simply add a fourth track at Guildwood station. The station's reconstruction a few years ago already built the structure and platforms for a fourth track, all that's missing is the track itself. But the downside of having a one-station-long passing track is that the local trains would need to sit for 2-3 extra minutes to allow the following express train to catch up. This delay can be resolved by extending the passing track to include another station. In the diagram below, I show the track being extended to Eglinton GO, but extending it to Rouge Hill would work as well.
View attachment 313256

The Stouffville line doesn't have any passing opportunites at all for express trains, so given that local service is proposed to operate every 10 minutes, express service is now physically impossible. In the previous design, express trains could run non-stop from Kennedy to Union.

Another question is what this reorganisation does to the USRC. The current layout of the flyover west of Union allows westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener trains to generally head through the middle of the corridor, while eastbound trains hug the southern edge. Between them there's room for services to terminate and head back the other direction, without crossing the Lakeshore local services.

Cyan: eastbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Magenta: westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Black: turnback platforms (VIA, terminating services etc)
Light Green: other (UPX etc)

<--- toward LSW, Milton, Kitchener, Barrie | | toward Union Station --->

View attachment 313259
View attachment 313325
With both directions of Lakeshore service hugging the south side of the corridor, VIA's Windsor, Ottawa and Montreal services would either need to cross westbound service at-grade to reach their current platforms, or they would need to depart from platforms 24-27, which aren't directly connected to the VIA concourse.
capture3-jpg.313257

capture5-jpg.313255



The discussion relates to the lack of separation between express and local trains due to the elimination of the grade separation. Instead of one 4-track corridor, LSE will need to operate as two 2-track corridors. At the same time as the cancellation of the grade separation, Verster announced that all GO trains would stop at East Harbour, which reduces the speed differential between local and express GO trains. I don't think Metrolinx cares about the delays the change will cause to Via trains.

Eliminating the grade separation also eliminates the ability to spread traffic across all 4 tracks. With the new 'commercially astute' plan without a grade separation, there LSE tracks could be at 100% capacity while there's spare capacity available on the Stouffville pair, but there's no practical way for LSE trains to access the Stouffville tracks because that would create more at-grade conflicts, which would defeat the purpose.

The other consideration is the efficiency of platform utilization at Union. If the local trains are single-level EMUs with lots of doors like most S-bahn systems, then they can have much shorter dwells at Union than the longer-distance bilevel trains. So combining the Stouffville and LSE local trains onto a single pair of tracks allows a single pair of platforms at Union to serve a huge number of trains, which is very space-efficient. In the new 'commercially astute' plan, the local and express services are sharing platforms which means that you aren't necessarily able to take full advantage of the capacity unlocked by shorter dwell times on local trains.

I didn't know if the 15-minute service on the Stouffville line "consumed" too much of the 3rd and 4th tracks for the LSE to run an express on top of 15-minute service plus VIA.
It depends how much express service you want on LSE. Due to the lack of grade separation, Stouffville will effectively monopolize the 3rd and 4th track, so LSE will only have 2 tracks between Union and Scarborough.

The 3-track segment between Scarborough and Guildwood is about 11 minutes long, so if you assume that it alternates throughout the day, there's room for 4 express trains per hour, total (2 in each direction). Given that Via already operates about 1 train per hour per direction off-peak, that would only leave room for 1 express GO train per hour per direction. During the PM peak, Via operates 2 trains per hour in the peak direction so more likely the full overtaking capacity of the third track would be used in the peak direction for 2 additional GO express trains per hour with no counter-peak express service (and Via trains crawling along between local GO trains).

In total LSE off-peak service might be 4 tph GO local, 1 tph GO express, and 1tph Via. Which is only 1 tph more than we had in 2021. That would be a pretty sad outcome of the multi-billion dollar GO Expansion, but that's what would happen if they cancel the track expansions east of Scarborough Jct.

With the way the signalling system is currently configured on the Kingston Sub, they can run 90mph trains every 5 minutes or so.

That's enough capacity for the immediate future, but depending on which version of the plans they are going to be using they will start to bump into the limits of what the signalling system is currently capable of in several years.

To achieve that with only a brief segment of triple track, you'd need to run all the trains with the same average speed (e.g. all local). Which would prevent us from achieving the promised travel times to outlying stations.
 
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It seems unlikely to me that they won't be cross-overs - that figure is misleading.
It's only misleading if you assume that it's showing every single track connection, which it obviously isnt. It's a diagram of typical track assignments for express and local services, hence the legend.
 
Question: with this and the potential completion of the new Guelph platform would this open up the possibility of Kitchener-Guelph round trip service even when the Kitchener line trains stop going west of Bramalea?
The new GO platform is not ready for use, because the track going to it is not tied in. Last I checked, things haven't changed from these pictures I took in July.

Speaking of the Guelph siding, some (non-)progress pictures from today. Retaining wall has been done for a long time, but the ballast and track assemblies still lay piled.

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