GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[innsertnamehere]

Metrolinx is talking about expanding retail opportunities at its stations actually, but it will likely be more in the form of convenience stores.

Pickering GO already has 2 small retail spots in the station building.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

I've always thought that a grocery store would work well near a GO station, as they are busiest after work and on weekends when GO parking lots normally have surplus parking spaces. It also seems reasonable that commuters would stop in to buy groceries after getting off their train, before going home. The only issue I can see is that some spaces would need to be reserved for store patrons on weekdays, but I would think there's minimal overlap in peak demand for parking.

 

[crs1026]

I really like the Hortons'/LCBO/Grocer/Convenience ideas.

Perhaps the priority ought to be on development on lines with all day service - ie Lakeshore and soon Kitchener - these have the best potential for attracting business investment. There's certainly likely to good sales potential in the on-the-way-home-from work customer base, but a steady flow of customer traffic throughout the day and evening would be desirable.

Mr Tory ought to include this concept in whatever Smarttrack design goes forward....for every station on that line. Does Metrolinx have a portfolio of station by station development plans?

Mount Pleasant appears to be the new gold standard, I hope it spreads. I hate to say, looking at how TTC and Metrolinx are advancing the Bloor/Dundas West/Crosstown site, there is a lot of room for improvement. They can't seem to agree on executing the obvious simple physical linkages between GO, UPE and Subway....and, not tying in the Crossways (which could fuel a rebirth of that site) is a missed opportunity IMHO.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

I've always thought that a grocery store would work well near a GO station, as they are busiest after work and on weekends when GO parking lots normally have surplus parking spaces. It also seems reasonable that commuters would stop in to buy groceries after getting off their train, before going home. The only issue I can see is that some spaces would need to be reserved for store patrons on weekdays, but I would think there's minimal overlap in peak demand for parking.

That idea has been bounced around at Metrolinx and GO. One of the earliest ideas for the parking garage at Oakville was to dedicate the ground level to retail - a supermarket, dry cleaners, LCBO, that kind of thing. It obviously didn't end up getting built that way, which makes me wonder what gave them the cold feet for the idea.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

That idea has been bounced around at Metrolinx and GO. One of the earliest ideas for the parking garage at Oakville was to dedicate the ground level to retail - a supermarket, dry cleaners, LCBO, that kind of thing. It obviously didn't end up getting built that way, which makes me wonder what gave them the cold feet for the idea.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Likely their feet got cold from a very cold reception from the retailers. Retail is a hyper competitive environment....retailers would look at the traffic flows in and out of GO stations and realize that there would be times that getting in and out of their stores would be very difficult....if your store is the one that has that "rep" of poor access/egress then you lose customers (likely way more customers than you pick up from the GO trains themselves) to the competition that is likely not that far away and does not have that sort of issue.

 

[TOareaFan]

I really like the Hortons'/LCBO/Grocer/Convenience ideas.

Perhaps the priority ought to be on development on lines with all day service - ie Lakeshore and soon Kitchener - these have the best potential for attracting business investment. There's certainly likely to good sales potential in the on-the-way-home-from work customer base, but a steady flow of customer traffic throughout the day and evening would be desirable.

Mr Tory ought to include this concept in whatever Smarttrack design goes forward....for every station on that line. Does Metrolinx have a portfolio of station by station development plans?

Mount Pleasant appears to be the new gold standard, I hope it spreads. I hate to say, looking at how TTC and Metrolinx are advancing the Bloor/Dundas West/Crosstown site, there is a lot of room for improvement. They can't seem to agree on executing the obvious simple physical linkages between GO, UPE and Subway....and, not tying in the Crossways (which could fuel a rebirth of that site) is a missed opportunity IMHO.

- Paul

Be interesting to know what your definition of "soon" is....there are no plans to introduce all day service in what I would call a "soon" time frame.

 

[crs1026]

One of the earliest ideas for the parking garage at Oakville was to dedicate the ground level to retail - a supermarket, dry cleaners, LCBO, that kind of thing. It obviously didn't end up getting built that way, which makes me wonder what gave them the cold feet for the idea.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

It may simply have been a desire to keep the building design simple, as well as maximise the number of parking spaces. Retail needs building utilities, access lanes and space for delivery trucks, dumpsters, etc as well as adding demand for short-term parking. Not insurmountable but definitely a complication. Also - any retail or other initiative would draw attention to the monthly charge per square foot for a retail shop, as compared to the similar cost per automobile space - this number may reflect badly on the business case for providing so much cheap parking, vs improving local feeder transit etc! That's a whole separate debate I won't digress into.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Be interesting to know what your definition of "soon" is....there are no plans to introduce all day service in what I would call a "soon" time frame.

People with sources have indicated September 2015 all-day service to Mount Pleasant. Though Metrolinx has long-since promised to restore the mid-day service to Bramalea that they suspended when construction started.

 

[TOareaFan]

People with sources have indicated September 2015 all-day service to Mount Pleasant. Though Metrolinx has long-since promised to restore the mid-day service to Bramalea that they suspended when construction started.

Hope those sources are right....all that ML have said publicly (and privately when I have asked) is an increase to "up to" 29 trains (split by direction) sometime (undetermined) after the completion of the GTS project. As you and I have discussed it is possible to stretch 29 trips over an 18 hour time frame to create the illusion of all day service but it leaves big, ugly, gaps in the schedule and becomes a bit farcical.

 

[nfitz]

Hope those sources are right....all that ML have said publicly (and privately when I have asked) is an increase to "up to" 29 trains (split by direction) sometime (undetermined) after the completion of the GTS project. As you and I have discussed it is possible to stretch 29 trips over an 18 hour time frame to create the illusion of all day service but it leaves big, ugly, gaps in the schedule and becomes a bit farcical.

Digging a bit. It was discussed here - http://www.cptdb.ca/index.php?showtopic=4666&page=324&#entry667769

Not clear if it's just mid-day service though, or also includes reverse-peak, evening, and/or weekend service.

It's unfortunate that they don't time this to match the start of Union-Pearson service - but presumably they need the extra crews in summer 2015 to provide the extra Pan-Am services they've been promising.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Likely their feet got cold from a very cold reception from the retailers. Retail is a hyper competitive environment....retailers would look at the traffic flows in and out of GO stations and realize that there would be times that getting in and out of their stores would be very difficult....if your store is the one that has that "rep" of poor access/egress then you lose customers (likely way more customers than you pick up from the GO trains themselves) to the competition that is likely not that far away and does not have that sort of issue.

I'm sure they could figure it out if the profit potential was there, but given the hyper competitive environment you may be right. Of course, store management are not infallible so it's possible that they are simply missing out on good opportunities because they are too "out of the big box" so to speak. Look at the new push towards urban, medium format retail - everyone is jumping on the bandwagon at the same time!

Another issue is that in many cases, GO ridership is not actually that high relative to what's required for higher density mixed uses. For example, the larger Lakeshore stations have 2500-3000 parking spaces each and most riders park and ride (I couldn't find stats on the mix). In contrast, lowly Woodbine station has almost 14,000 daily riders, which combined with walk-ins can support a small Valu Mart beside the station.

 

[gweed123]

I've always thought that a grocery store would work well near a GO station, as they are busiest after work and on weekends when GO parking lots normally have surplus parking spaces. It also seems reasonable that commuters would stop in to buy groceries after getting off their train, before going home. The only issue I can see is that some spaces would need to be reserved for store patrons on weekdays, but I would think there's minimal overlap in peak demand for parking.

Yes, a grocery store was another one of the retail possibilities that I had imagined, although it would take a considerably larger footprint. The Tim Horton's kiosk at Union is literally wrapped around a pole, and doesn't take up very much space at all.

My ultimate vision for the GO parking lot sites is this (assuming a relatively square, large parking lot): 4 parking structures in the 4 quadrants of the site, with an access road on the edge of the site on either side. The ground floor of the structures would be retail, possibly Big Box, but including things like an LCBO and restaurants as well. Floors 2-4 would be parking, while above that would be condominiums, a series of towers at different corners of the structure, and varying in height. The space in between the 4 parking structures would be a pedestrian promenade, with the N-S one leading directly to the GO station at one end and the main road at the other, and the other bisecting the main promenade. The idea is a distinct separation of pedestrian and vehicular flow, as the vehicles are confined to the outside of the site and floors 2-4, while the pedestrian flow is on the inside of the site in an urban village-like setting.

In general, that would be a much more efficient use of the parking lot space, and would actually create a TOD community around each station. Not to mention, it would be a good way to disperse the evening rush hour parking crowd, because they could stop and pick up dinner/do groceries/pick up a bottle of wine/actually stay there for dinner, instead of just rushing to their car to leave.

And smallspy, I didn't know the Oakville parking garage was going to include retail. It's really too bad they didn't, although with Oakville at least there's retail within the parking lot complex (Taco Bell and a couple others I believe). Stations like Burlington only have a Wal Mart that's across a field adjacent to the station.

 

[crs1026]

Hope those sources are right....all that ML have said publicly (and privately when I have asked) is an increase to "up to" 29 trains (split by direction) sometime (undetermined) after the completion of the GTS project. As you and I have discussed it is possible to stretch 29 trips over an 18 hour time frame to create the illusion of all day service but it leaves big, ugly, gaps in the schedule and becomes a bit farcical.

That's what was in my mind when I made my earlier comments in the Crosstown discussion about project management transparency. Replaying the tape, I believe the Georgetown South project began as a notional four-track mainline that would deliver UPE plus all day GO service. Somewhere along the line that got cut back to a three-track mainline with the fourth roughed in and added (maybe) later. I suspect that happened as cost projections grew...a project manager's typical response to added cost is to cut scope. Did anyone publicly record this decision and come clean publicly that having only three tracks would preclude full all day service? Is there a committed plan and target date for the full build?

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

That's what was in my mind when I made my earlier comments in the Crosstown discussion about project management transparency. Replaying the tape, I believe the Georgetown South project began as a notional four-track mainline that would deliver UPE plus all day GO service. Somewhere along the line that got cut back to a three-track mainline with the fourth roughed in and added (maybe) later. I suspect that happened as cost projections grew...a project manager's typical response to added cost is to cut scope. Did anyone publicly record this decision and come clean publicly that having only three tracks would preclude full all day service? Is there a committed plan and target date for the full build?

- Paul

The "up to" 29 train trips that ML talk about has not changed since day one of the GTS project. There has never been a commitment (nor a notion) that GTS would deliver/produce AD2W service on the Kitchener (then Georgetown) line.

 

[crs1026]

The "up to" 29 train trips that ML talk about has not changed since day one of the GTS project. There has never been a commitment (nor a notion) that GTS would deliver/produce AD2W service on the Kitchener (then Georgetown) line.

Well, here's how the story as some of the main documents described it over the years. One might try and find some of the Powerpoint presentations that have been put out by GO/Metrolinx over the years on the topic.

June 15, 2007 - MoveOntario 2020 –– can’t find the original document, others referencing it appear to suggest that it’s vague on the Georgetown line

http://www.westoncommunitycoalition.ca/move ontario projects.pdf


Nov 8, 2008 - The Big Move - 15 year strategy map – states full all day 2 way to Georgetown, 15+ 2008 = 2023

http://www.metrolinx.com/thebigmove/en/interactive/schedule1.pdf


Dec 12 2008 - GO 2020 Plan - Service plan Pg 17 Shows all day 2 way to Mt Pleasant (arguably, this represents an advanced date from 2023 to 2020 compared to The Big Move)

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/docs/publications/Strategic_Plan_GO_2020_lowres.pdf


April 2010 – Federal funding announced to permit construction of a fourth track

http://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/media/news-nouvelles/2010/20100416toronto-eng.html
http://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2010/04/infrastructure-investments-in-go-transit.html


December 2010 - GO Electrification Study Final report - Pg 20 – 4 tracks to airport, 3 to Bramalea, 3-4 Bramalea to Georgetown, 2 beyond Georgetown to KW; Pg 22 – Reference case of 61 GO trains on the Georgetown line

http://www.gotransit.com/electrific...y/docs/ElectricificationStudy_FinalReport.pdf


Feb 14, 2013 - Big Move Changes – All-day service on the Mt Pleasant to Georgetown segment moved to 25 year plan (implies the 15-year horizon still applies as far as Mount Pleasant, with the original 2008+15 clock running?)

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/bigmove/The_Big_Move_Approved_Changes_EN.pdf

Nov 19 2013 – Hansard – Bruce McCuaig to Standing Committee on Government Agencies – 09:50 AM – response to Mr. Rosario Marchese – Metrolinx has not dropped all day service as far as Bramalea (implied - but has beyond)

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/committe...ess=Agency+review:+Metrolinx&DocumentID=27462

And here’s what the Big Move page of the Metrolinx web site says today
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/nextwave/Fact_Sheet_GO_Service_Expansion_EN.pdf

As for the Province,
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...-go-service-to-kitchener-in-5-years-1.2654775

- Paul