GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[dowlingm]

Even if Hunter Street could be twinned, can GO push enough trains through Bayview Junction in both directions to justify it, while also maxing the potential of a completed east exit from West Harbour?

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Even if Hunter Street could be twinned, can GO push enough trains through Bayview Junction in both directions to justify it, while also maxing the potential of a completed east exit from West Harbour?

Probably not, which is why I dream about the day Metrolinx gets serious and builds a flyover or two at the canal. The trip is painfully slow between West Harbour/GO Centre and the Royal Botanical Gardens, like 15km/h slow at some spots.

 

[Northern Light]

Even if Hunter Street could be twinned, can GO push enough trains through Bayview Junction in both directions to justify it, while also maxing the potential of a completed east exit from West Harbour?

I feel like that's a @reaperexpress question.

***

Side note, right now the single track section of the approach is ~1.2km. Of that a bit more than 800M is the tunnel, with a bit less than 400M being east of the tunnel, in an open-cut, assuming the bridges (pedestrian and road) over the open cut allowed sufficient clearance for two double-stack tracks, or could be cost-effectively replaced to allow such, the two 'hard' pinch points would the Junction and the Tunnel (as is).

If you have a way of doing so please feel free to share. As of right now the Hunter Street tunnel only has a single track that has the responsibility of running both CP and GO in and out of hamilton. Whilst the tunnel is theoretically wide enough to support two tracks, the tunnel isn't tall enough to support double-stack freight trains in such a configuration (hence why its single track currently). If you want to expand the tunnel to offer more service, there are 2 general ways to do so: Make the tunnel taller so that a track on the side of the tunnel could support double stacks, or make the tunnel wider. The former cannot be done whilst also preserving CP's access to Hamilton GO, so you'd have to somehow build some sort of temporary bypass that CP trains could use whilst work is being done on the tunnel. Then you could theoretically move the track to a side of the tunnel, and deepen the tunnel one half at a time (I'm not an engineer, and there's a really high chance this isn't even feasible, but I'm working with extremely optimistic scenarios here). Even then work could probably be done way faster by just... closing the tunnel and not doing half a tunnel at a time.

The one 1/2 at a time strategy is fine, in theory, but even if the tunnel dimesions and safety permit it, that obviously requires the track shifted to one side, during which time it would not be able to handled double-stack freight, until the first 1/2 of the modification is complete.

***

A tunnel by-pass isn't realistic, at that point, you're literally building a new tunnel, on a new alignment. But you made me laugh, I pictured forcing CP and GO to street-run on Hunter Street!

You could widen the tunnel, but that would almost certainly have to be done using cut and cover construction, and expropriating/paying heavy easements to all of the residents/business owners along hunter street, and once again while it might be possible to keep current CP/GO service levels here, doing so would almost certainly jack up the construction timeline, and thus increase cost.

I don't have the drawings showing the exact alignment of the tunnel, but I imagine, the large apartments on either side of Hunter St. at various points have underground parking that must come awfully close to the tunnel walls. .....

 

[Northern Light]

I feel like expanding the Hunter Street tunnel is not something that needs to disrupt current service levels. It's the 21st century, this can be well planned out to maintain a single track. Metrolinx is spending billions elsewhere for less important projects north of Toronto, im sure they could put some attention to downtown Hamilton.

Also, yes, we're supposedly getting billions of dollars in investment for the Hamilton LRT. But when?? It's now over 15 years since they first proposed it..... still nothing.

As I noted above, if you could do as you suggest, by shifting the tract to one side, temporarily, you would, temporarily, eliminate the double-stack freight clearance, which is required by the tunnel owner.

 

[ARG1]

A tunnel by-pass isn't realistic, at that point, you're literally building a new tunnel, on a new alignment. But you made me laugh, I pictured forcing CP and GO to street-run on Hunter Street!

I was deliberately vague about what the alternative would look like, but realistically if it were to happen, it would probably be forcing CP to use the CN tracks during construction. I didn't want to outright suggest it though because I think both CP and CN would have a few choice words regarding such an arrangement.

 

[Northern Light]

I was deliberately vague about what the alternative would look like, but realistically if it were to happen, it would probably be forcing CP to use the CN tracks during construction. I didn't want to outright suggest it though because I think both CP and CN would have a few choice words regarding such an arrangement.

You were thinking of sending CP down the 'Belt Line" ?

 

[dowlingm]

I figured that doubling Hunter St would require daylighting at least part of it. That there are adjoining garages definitely increases the degree of difficulty

 

[just east of the creek]

Even if Hunter Street could be twinned, can GO push enough trains through Bayview Junction in both directions to justify it, while also maxing the potential of a completed east exit from West Harbour?

Somewhere I believe there is further work on the planning books to improve the Junction. Timing and planning elude me right now, but other sources may have information.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

I mean ya, I would definitely consider increasing service to Ontario's third largest CMA (Hamilton) a higher priority than say....the colossal waste of money that is Bloomington. That station cost 100 million dollars and is barely used. For that price they could easily have doubled the track at the Hunter Street tunnel, and probably built some additional track at the Desjardin Canal so that both Hamilton GO Centre and West Harbour could have increased service. That's what i'm talking about when I say less important projects north of Toronto.

 

[ARG1]

You were thinking of sending CP down the 'Belt Line" ?

I was referring to the Grimsby sub. In terms of how to get there it looks like there's room to build some sort of temporary track connection between the CP yards and that sub, although I can't comment on the logistics of such a maneuver. Is that the "Belt Line" you're referring to?

 

[dowlingm]

I mean ya, I would definitely consider increasing service to Ontario's third largest CMA (Hamilton) a higher priority than say....the colossal waste of money that is Bloomington. That station cost 100 million dollars and is barely used. For that price they could easily have doubled the track at the Hunter Street tunnel, and probably built some additional track at the Desjardin Canal so that both Hamilton GO Centre and West Harbour could have increased service. That's what i'm talking about when I say less important projects north of Toronto.

What on earth makes you think that a province where a side platform and garage costs 100m can do anything of what you suggest for like money? Bloomington was technically easy and it adds a smidge of ridership to a line not under capacity pressure, so they did it. They can run out of the North-facing layover, pick people up which changing ends and head south.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

What on earth makes you think that a province where a side platform and garage costs 100m can do anything of what you suggest for like money? Bloomington was technically easy and it adds a smidge of ridership to a line not under capacity pressure, so they did it. They can run out of the North-facing layover, pick people up which changing ends and head south.

You just proved my point. Again, that station added essentially zero additional riders to the system and cost tax payers 100 million dollars. Complete vanity project. That money should have been used in places where there is real demand for public transit, like in downtown Hamilton. The hunter street tunnel could have been expanded for 100 million. Easily.

 

[dowlingm]

You just proved my point. Again, that station added essentially zero additional riders to the system and cost tax payers 100 million dollars. Complete vanity project. That money should have been used in places where there is real demand for public transit, like in downtown Hamilton. The hunter street tunnel could have been expanded for 100 million. Easily.

In a province where a bike path and some bridges costs 50% more? Can we stop the vibes posting please.

 

[crs1026]

In a province where a bike path and some bridges costs 50% more? Can we stop the vibes posting please.

The thing we have to accept about our whole transit expansion in the GTA is that money is not endless. I am increasingly conscious that ML's sporadic and hard to understand construction performance may well be the product of the Finance branch of government applying purse strings. There are lots of examples where ML would be better to add additional capacity sooner, but what is being done is the result of rationed funding (Aldershot-Bayview-Hamilton throughput, only a third track in Brampton, level junction at Scarborough Jct, fourth track to Bramalea, track to St Catherines, Milton 2WAD, Kitchener 2WAD, etc). ML disguises this reality with its endless PR jabber about a perfect 2WAD universe that is (perpetually) only a few years away.... but the reality is, we can't afford to build anything more sooner.
What this means is that we have to temper our expectations and druthers towards what is achievable. Ontario's transit program in total is actually pretty aggressive and financially risky. We will end up with a few great bits of infrasturcture, but much of it will only be good, and perhaps not good enough....I can't see us getting ahead of the curve for several decades.
The last couple of pages of this discussion seem to exemplify what I'm trying to say.

- Paul

 

[Chris R.]

Last I checked (and someone could correct me on this), but the capital funding is already there and available to be used. The only thing that's holding it back is Hamilton City Council approving it, and willing to put forth their own money to operate and maintain the line.

All approved and the memorandum of understanding is signed. It's all in Metrolinx's court now. Hamilton council signed off on final approvals like almost a year ago now. We've been waiting for RFP/RFQ to go out for minimum 12 months. Not the place to continue that discussion, so I'll leave it there, but there's a thread in infrastructure to chat about this topic I've been slightly obsessing over it because of the lack of progress