News   Nov 07, 2024
 294     0 
News   Nov 07, 2024
 222     0 
News   Nov 07, 2024
 488     1 

GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

With my apologies for the repetition...

I too which to extend my thanks to Vegeta for the fine post.

The inside info is very much appreciated!
 
Not a problem you guys. I'm more than glad to dispense information that can be helpful in understanding some of the on-goings at GO :)
 
It also explans why the Lakeshore line has not gone to 30 minutes like it was supposed to a few years ago.

Engineers are not the easy type of RR workers to find and keep. Its not the easy job as some ppl think.

If GO going to do all this expanding of service over the next few years, it not going to happen unless Bombardier goes on a hiring speed as well increase the training program.

If CP and other regional rail systems can use 2 man crews, why can't GO/Bombardier do it?
 
It also explans why the Lakeshore line has not gone to 30 minutes like it was supposed to a few years ago.

I would say so. We know its not the tracks - there's a couple of freights out on the Oakville sub and a fair amount of VIA's running on the Kingston sub. But still, even with doubling the mid day GO's there wouldn't be nearly as many train movements as during rush hour and they can manage that just fine now. Clearly they have the equipment for it. One only needs to see Bathurst or Don yard anytime after the morning rush for proof. There might be some difficultly in coordinating refueling but its not beyond their ability to figure out a schedule to rotate the trains out as they do now. The man power issue is all there really is. It doesn't appear that GO seem to be too concerned about this issue... I suppose they are saving some money on crewing & fuel by not having to run lightly loaded midday trains just yet. Hopefully I'm wrong about that, since I'm not a privy to what goes on in those metrolinx board meetings.

If CP and other regional rail systems can use 2 man crews, why can't GO/Bombardier do it?

That might sound like a good idea but really it wouldn't have made any difference in this situation. All that would do is eliminate the CSA position, there would still be the same number of conductors and engineers as there are now and therefore the shortage of head-end personal would still exist in that scenario.
The CSA is basically an enter-level position that GO mandated for improved customer service who does not have anything to do with the operation of the train. In fact the CP crew are probably more expensive than the Bombardier ones. The salary of the 3 man crew maybe more but I have little doubt that CP charges GO considerably more for the use of their employees. In any case the savings are substantial when compared to the costs of employing CN's 3 man crew where the one doing what the CSA does now got paid almost twice as much. In addition CN likely charged more than CP to 'rent' their crews too.

If you meant, 'why don't eliminate the conductor', they couldn't do that even if they wanted too.Transport Canada does not permit for a train crew to be comprised of less than 2 rules qualified personal. Now they don't have to be on the head end - hence why CP can have one in the middle instead, although really, he's not much good there for enforcing the safe operation of the train :rolleyes:

Actually... even if it was allowed it wouldn't change anything, heck we'd be in the exact same position - with just enough qualified engineers to run the trains. They would of had to start hiring inexperienced people long ago(as they did) and then waited at least 2 years(again CN-Transport Canada regulation - if they dropped this it would change everything) before they could start their engineer training(as they are now). The conductors have always been seen as only serving a temporary position. And with the expansion that Go's talking about, we'll need even more conductor to become qualified just to have 1 engineer for each train.
 
Last edited:
Not a problem you guys. I'm more than glad to dispense information that can be helpful in understanding some of the on-goings at GO :)
Thank you! I was wondering about the lack of 30-minute service, and I thought it was due to not enough motive power.

A question about terminology: is the officially-preferred term for the person who operates the train 'engineer', rather than 'operator' or 'driver'? I seem to recall that 'driver' is the preferred term in the UK, and using either of these terms would clear up confusion with the kind of engineers who design engines/buildings/bridges/whatever rather than operate them...
 
I can't see the Kitchener runs just being extended from Georgetown runs. I know one of the problems is that the Georgetown yard/station only has the capacity for four trains right now and hard to expand. That's fine. But a new two-track yard is being built in Kitchener (expandable), I just can't figure out how they can fit everybody on the four existing trains, as I mentioned many times, Georgetown is stuck with the same four peak round trips as it had in 1981, though the trains are longer and the shoulder peak trips and the one AM peak/local operation helped slightly. They would have to be new trains, running express from Brampton to Union (with stops in Guelph, Acton, Georgetown, Mt. Pleasant, Brampton), perhaps dispensing with the AM local from Bramalea though.

Brampton Station will be a more attractive stop in September with all day express buses to Square One.

I refuse to believe Kitchener will just dump more riders on the existing trains, as that will be a clusterfukk for passengers from Brampton, Bramalea, Malton squeezing on those same 1981 train runs.
 
Thank you! I was wondering about the lack of 30-minute service, and I thought it was due to not enough motive power.

A question about terminology: is the officially-preferred term for the person who operates the train 'engineer', rather than 'operator' or 'driver'? I seem to recall that 'driver' is the preferred term in the UK, and using either of these terms would clear up confusion with the kind of engineers who design engines/buildings/bridges/whatever rather than operate them...
'Driver' is a modern addition to UK usage because train operators are no longer necessarily engineers. The term is meant to cover two of the three main unions for rail in the UK: Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers, National Union of Railwaymen, and excluding the Railway Clerks' Association.


I can't see the Kitchener runs just being extended from Georgetown runs.
I refuse to believe Kitchener will just dump more riders on the existing trains, as that will be a clusterfukk for passengers from Brampton, Bramalea, Malton squeezing on those same 1981 train runs.
I'm reasonable sure that there won't be new peak trains from the Kitchener extension, only extending the schedule earlier and providing an extra shoulder-peak train. Once extra Union Station slots open up, then new peak service we start appearing across the network, until then everyone is in the same boat, or train rather.
 
I'm reasonable sure that there won't be new peak trains from the Kitchener extension, only extending the schedule earlier and providing an extra shoulder-peak train. Once extra Union Station slots open up, then new peak service we start appearing across the network, until then everyone is in the same boat, or train rather.
Looking at the proposed departure times from Kitchener that the media reported (6:15 AM and 7:30 AM), my guess is that trips 270 and 252 that currently start in Bramalea would now start in Kitchener. But I'm only guessing.
 
[edit] oops, I guess I've been beaten

Regarding the Kitchener extension:

From what I've read,
One train is an extension of the currently-deadheaded Bramalea train.
One train is a new train.

If this is correct, then it means going from 4 (and a half) trains to 6.

The Kitchener yard they are currently building is actually just two rail sidings. Plans for a more full-featured yard new Baden are still on hold. Stratford has been lobbying to reuse some of their unneeded rail yards, and bring GO service all the way to Stratford. If the 2 sidings in Kitchener can hold things over for some time, this would be an excellent plan.
 
That doesn't affect me, but that's disappointing.

I thought I heard someone mention that Milton is going to get an 8th train soon (up from the current 7). Anyone know any more info on that? vegeta_skyline?
 
One train is an extension of the currently-deadheaded Bramalea train....
Presumably not dead-headed after the extension ...'cause if they are, they should run the thing in service!

The 2011 passenger demands in the EA for the AM peak into Kitchener were almost as high as those coming out of Kitchener (2011 AM peak arrivals in Kitchener of 450-950 compared to 600-1300 departures (which drop only 575 to 1000 once the train stops in Guelph) ... i.e. if they ran a full service, there is almost as much demand for AM arrivals in Kitchener, as there is those in KW/Guelph heading further east.
 
Last edited:
Alright. That should work okay for the short term. I'd imagine that the two trains from Kitchener would run express from some point, would it be Brampton or Bramalea? The one thing going for Bramalea is that it would make for a great connection for Kitchener-Guelph trips to York U (it'd be much faster than getting off at Brampton and taking the 501A).
 
Right now not a single GO train has 2 engineers. Even though they refer to us all as Train Operators only 1 is actually a qualified engineer. An engineer can work as a conductor but a conductor cannot work as an engineer A conductor can work as a CSA but a CSA cannot work as a conductor.

There is a total of 66 qualified engineers. Currently there are 54 jobs in operation. Provisions must be made for a 'spare board'. Those on the spare board are called in to work when another employee is off for vacation or a day of rest. We currently have 7 people on the spare board which is dangerously low, typically close to 20% is preferable, meaning there should really be around 11-12. The 5 others are off for various other reasons (health concerns, suspensions, unknown). The 7 on the spare board can only cover 5 days each (=35 man days total per week). On average 3 engineers per week are off on vacation for each week of the year (-15 man days) and we each get 2 sick days a year (66x2=132 total for work force/52 weeks = 2.5). That leaves 17.5 days. Meaning that over the course of a 7 day week the spare board is currently sufficient to cover for 2-3 unplanned absences per day. That's a pretty slim margin considering how GO prides itself on providing reliable service. Luckily there are many employees who are more than willing to take overtime by working on their off days.

The Niagara service added 2 jobs to the total, without which the base total for regular service is now 52. That number is down from last year when there was 55 jobs (57 or 58 with Niagara). Of course there have been no service cuts. So what gives? Efficiency? Definitely not. Not when you end up paying more for operations. By cutting off those 3 jobs (about 26 hrs total - the average job was 8:30) you just added on average 1/2hr in OT to every other job. The reason of course is the crewing shortage. The first batch of new conductors (meaning those who were hired without any prior railway experience and had to wait 2 years due to CN & transport Canada provisions) were Qualified at the start of the year. 6 new engineers were added, unfortunately 8 or 9 engineers left in that same period (retirement, VIA)

Bombardier has an open ad for engineers on their web site. Its been up for 3 years. However aside from a large batch of CP & ONR layoffs 18 or so months ago they have had difficultly recruiting any more experienced engineers.
Knowing this, they have continued to prod along with the training program. There is a group of 6 engineers in training that will be available come summer time. Following that another group of 4 will be ready 6 months later around the new year. However its expected that there will be a few more retirements and possibly a few more may leave for VIA. Considering that, its likely that in the course of 2011 they will have added a net total of 6-7 engineers (meaning 6-7 new jobs will be possible). Disappointing considering the plan was to train 12 at a time but unfortunately they didn't plan for any contingencies.

The 5th Barrie train will take one and the Kitchener trains will take 2 (unless they are simply extending 2 of the Georgetown trains). That would leave between 3-6. However I wouldn't expect any more runs since they really do need to top up the spare board to appropriate levels (10-13).

These new engineers could have been ready 9 months before they actually were (i.e. when they had gotten their 2 years in) But they couldn't allow the conductors to start training as engineers because they had a shortage of them! Which they have no excuse for since its much more easier train a conductor (6 months) than it is an engineer (2.5 years min). Fortunately they have recently expedited the training of new conductors. Basically they've finally got their act together and by the start of next year 10-12 conductors at a time will begin their engineer training. After 6 month of training, they'll be added to the pool of engineers(next summer). Only then will we likely see more significant service increases.

VS: Thanks for the insight on Bombardier's contract operation of GO's Rail service...I did not know that CN is no longer contracted to operate this service...when did Bombardier take over the GO contract?

They seem to be operating this service somewhat short of the number of train crew employees needed especially with coming service expansion...

I wonder if many Engineers/Conductors opted to remain with CN when this operating change took effect...

LI MIKE
 
All I can say is I’ve heard 'talk' of an 8th train but I've seen no concrete evidence of it. Wish I could help out more there, but because the Milton line is run by CP I don't hear as much about it and can't really see the signs that indicate a service increase may be on the way.
I've not been out there in awhile (July '09), but there were only 7 wayside power cabinets installed at Milton Layover Yard then, and I don't recall seeing a tender for the provision of a new one. So unless someone else can remember differently, there isn't the infrastructure in place, although it shouldn't take too long to deliver and install if CP approves an extra two track slots.
 

Back
Top