GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[mdrejhon]

There were forum posts here over half a year ago that the Sharyo was confirmed able to hit 140kph+ on several GPS-measured passenger runs. It is mentioned in a Toronto Star article too. In a hurry, UPX reaches Pearson in 19-20 minutes but it is not recommended to push these trains that hard on a regular basis on hot summer days, as it reportedly overheated during repeated 145kph runs. It is the fastest regularly scheduled Nippon Sharyo DMU run in the world, AFAIK, with it running 127kph max elsewhere. In fact, Wikipedia page for the Nippon Sharyo specifically highlights the UPX maximum speed as 90mph/145kph in the right hand sidebar.

GO just ordered some more powerful Tier 4 compliant MP40s recently. The first in North America! They have a prototype Tier 4 MP40 already doing passenger service, the first in the world, and ordered 16 more, from scratch rather than conversions. These are more powerful locomotives with two engines in one locomotive enclosure, only one of which is needed to pull a 12 coach train. This will help weekend operations, where they often run two engines on some routes for redundancy because a lot of repair resources aren't available on weekends. But more to the point, shows Metrolinx being aligned with the Ontario greening spree -- it is not likely they are willing to go dirtier-diesel at this time, and new diesel logos are already enroute to Metrolinx, which will still help fleet needs while waiting for electrification.

 

[crs1026]

Metrolinx only intends to electrify 70% of GO. There will be a continuing need for diesel powered trains. Bear in mind too that the. remaining 30% is a statistic based on a seriously greater number of runs. So much if not all of the MPI diesels will be around a long time, and they have plenty of years of life left. Nothing would be green about putting this fleet out to pasture prematurely. I hope GO uses this equipment well, they will have no difficulty offering all sorts of vague but impressive sounding statistics once they have more Tier IVs in the fleet and begin stringing wires.

I'm thinking we need a Fantasy Equipment Roster thread to house all the analysis that's going on here. It's not that I dispute anyone's logic - it's just that the procurement process will be a little more mundane. And political. UPE got lucky with the Nippon order - it was small, no one local had a credible product to offer, and the price was right. The stars won't align that well when GO goes out for its EMU or electric loco orders. Or if they saw merit in a DMU order.

Over in the Revenue Tools thread we are discussing how the federal budget isn't showing Ontario much transit love yet. Guess what the price of that love will include. Yep, Ontario will have to play nice on any big transit orders we place. We may be watching that siding in Thunder Bay (among other places) for years to come.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

MD: I think you'll find the double engined locos (a ghost from the past with earlier EMDs) is for acceleration, where the thrust to weight ratio is almost doubled (It's not a complete double, since the loco is also accelerating its own mass).

Vegeta answers my question, and I thought as much. The top speed criteria for the Weston Corridor as that pertains to the Sharyos is 80 mph (probably 79mph IIRC by TC regs). Note the top speed for the SMART ones by your own link, a section of which I quoted earlier: 79 mph! The limitation will be engine revs per final ratio, but the advantage to that is maximized acceleration (torque translated to tractive effort) in lieu of top-speed higher than can be used. It also means (and God help me for raising this, but it might come up later anyway) with two powered cars, a passive trailer car can be added in and still meet the timetable the higher final-drive gear UPX models have.

So therein might lie the *interim solution* to re-engineering the existing UPX rolling stock to do "RER Weston". Re-gear the existing stock, and add compatible trailers sandwiched between two powered units. All the UPX stock is powered. The present 18 units won't be enough to do Bramalea south, even if the airport is run as a shuttle. With unpowered *compatible* but *not Sharyo* trailer cars, they just might. It's a good topic of discussion.

So why am I so cagey on ordering Sharyo again?

Paul writes:
[UPE got lucky with the Nippon order - it was small, no one local had a credible product to offer, and the price was right. The stars won't align that well when GO goes out for its EMU or electric loco orders. Or if they saw merit in a DMU order.]
And that's exactly what I found digging the history of the type from the California press. I'll dig out what I posted to another forum, the stories ruffled a few feathers, but the gist is that SMART themselves had only a window of nine months to order more at the same price of their original acquisition. To order them now is *double* the price (One supposes the production line is mothballed, there are not other North Am agencies ordering them...a question in itself).

There's no doubt, that as far as time has shown so far, they are good units, but we now have a problem expanding the fleet. If early inception Weston Corridor RER isn't run to Bramalea, then it's not going to work. So what are we going to do to fill in the missing DMU stock to make it so?

I'll see if I can find those scathing cost reports on SMART and Sharyos. They were from the local Sonoma press and the SF press, some of them quite in-depth. Fortunately, I saved copies of my posts so I can search in my mail folders for them. Quite often hearsay misses crucial points.

Remember! UPX is now using virtually only assigned trackage. If the heavy loco hauled trains only run once an hour from Mt Pleasant using the single GO assigned track, then why is top speed being touted as a criterion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the present UPX timetable is matched, but extended up to Bramalea, RER can become de-facto, and in short time in a relative sense. And Toronto can show that to the Feds, say "this is SmartTrack", the province match Toronto's share...and we can all train whistle Dixie.

I'm very tempted to mention unpowered trailers as a prelude to electrifying them later, except the Sharyo electric conversion is like the same axe, but with a new handle and head. Those Sharyos are far better cascaded to the un-electrified regions later or sold to SMART for cost price since they won't be buying any more new.

Vegeta: Many thanks for that info. It changes a lot. Any more comments on the fleet and idiosyncrasies most welcome.

You wrote:
[They don't seem to be electronically governed at that exact speed however so occasionally you might clock them running slightly faster than that, hopefully not more than a couple of mph because it's a rule violation(not taken lightly). ]

The TorStar ran an article on the yet to open UPX (at a time when everyone was running obviously PR fed glowing articles) stating the max speed the Sharyos could go. Two days later, they ran a correction (obviously from a frantic UPX or Metrolinx exec) stating that the max speed was as you state.

Edit to Add: I'm going to have to re-read my links and copy to extract the most relevant parts to this discussion, but here's a start:
[06/30/15
[...][ The three additional cars will boost SMART’s seating capacity by 35 percent, officials said. Because of the escalating costs for rail cars, the grant also was estimated to have saved taxpayers about $11 million, according to state officials.

“It’s a big deal,” said Farhad Mansourian, the rail authority’s general manager, expressing thanks to Kelly and McGuire for securing a piece of the competitive grant funding.

The three cars will expand SMART’s existing fleet of 14 cars, which operate in two-car sets, enabling the system to run a trio of three-car sets, Mansourian said. The new cars are “middle cars” that will sandwich between two of the existing cars, he said.

That configuration boosts passenger capacity from 320 people sitting and standing to 450 people in the three-car sets, he said.

The added capacity will help enable SMART to extend service from the Charles M. Schulz–Sonoma County Airport to Windsor, a link currently missing from the rail development plan. The authority also needs $39 million to lay track from the airport area to Windsor, Mansourian said.

SMART took delivery of four gray and green rail cars in April and has the other 10 on order, he said.

The rail agency also needs $40 million to extend the line 2.2 miles south from downtown San Rafael to the Larkspur ferry terminal, but believes it has that money in hand. The Metropolitan Transportation Commission awarded a $20 million grant last year and the other $20 million is included in President Barack Obama’s proposed $4 trillion budget, which is awaiting congressional action.

With the price of rail cars expected to double after 2017, the latest grant saves SMART — and ultimately taxpayers — $11 million, Mansourian said.][...]
http://www.marinij.com/general-news...illion-grant-to-purchase-three-more-rail-cars

I may have been incorrect in presuming the assembly lines is "mothballed" (albeit I might have read that elsewhere, I have a fair bit of info accrued). If that "2017" date is still correct, it would appear to be worthy of discussion to see if expanding the present UPX stock (albeit maximized for seats, not comfort or chic magazines) is possible...and doing that with unpowered cars if the thrust-to-weight ratio with re-geared existing stock allows keeping to the present timetable.

Here's some more links that I've yet to vet again:

http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/07/16/smart-to-use-heavier-rail-cars/

http://friendsofsmart.net/images/DMU_leasing_alternatives.pdf

http://www.trainweb.org/ultradomes/dmu/compliance.html

https://itineranturbanist.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/dmus-the-fra-and-enviromental-law-reform/

http://seattletransitblog.com/2014/01/03/the-cheaper-brighter-future-of-american-passenger-rail/

http://www.marinij.com/article/NO/20150411/LOCAL1/150419997

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...th-Bay-line-to-open-6477043.php#photo-8562429

http://www.marinij.com/article/NO/20160120/NEWS/160129971

 

[steveintoronto]

Digging at SMART to get some technical info on the Nippon Sharyo UPX trainsets, I can't find the info published elsewhere, albeit if anyone has a link, please supply. I was looking for coupler types/compatibility and also intra-trainset brake and electrical interconnections to see if a generic unpowered trailer could be bought to sandwich in (doubtful, but this info is always valuable, weight is a huge concern). And I tripped across this little detail which completely throws an electrical wrench into Metrolinx' claim of later electrical conversion (something that always struck me as being beyond far-fetched as the drive system is hydraulic. Almost everything mechanical must be replaced)

SMART Technical Specification for Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs) Draft for Industry Review January 20, 2010

[...][• If a diesel electric drive is proposed, will it be possible to easily convert the vehicle into a dual mode vehicle at a later date, to be able to operate under a 1500Vdc catenary and diesel? ][...]

http://www2.sonomamarintrain.org/us...Draft DMU Technical Specification 1-20-10.pdf

Note that spec for "1500Vdc catenary"! Metrolinx' claim for 'easily converted to EMU later' is based on a very false assumption. Metrolinx are going 25kV AC! That necessitates a "traction transformer", something that requires space and adds significant weight to the vehicle. As much as low voltage (600-3Kv DC) is considered 'old technology' it still has advantages, one of them being the lack of dragging around a heavy transformer. Control in low voltage DC systems is entirely solid-state nowadays, and with IGBT and SCR controllers, very efficient and compact, but whatever, Metrolinx have adopted the 25 kV Ac standard. It also has advantages, mostly low-loss transmission....but I can find no allowances in the vehicle design to accommodate a traction transformer and associated rectifier and component cabinet.

Comments? I might be overlooking something?

Further to expanding the present UPX fleet, in some form or other but using the Nippon Sharyo vehicles, now might be the time to do it!

Just up in the local press in Sonoma:

[A state agency has granted Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit $11 million to buy four more cars as the service gets ready to begin later this year.
The California Transportation Commission approved the grant last week, a move that allows the rail agency to expand the service as the system grows.
“What is big about this is we can use any one of these as a third car,” said Farhad Mansourian, the rail agency’s general manager. “We get more capacity.”
The SMART cars are known as diesel multiple units that have engines in each car, allowing them to operate independently in sets of two. Eventually a middle third car could be added.
“This is through the transit intercity rail capital program, which is the cap and trade program,” said Laurel Janssen, a deputy director for the commission, of the grant.
That program was created in 2014 to provide grants from the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund to pay for “capital improvements and operational investments that will modernize California’s transit systems and intercity, commuter, and urban rail systems to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases by reducing vehicle miles traveled throughout” the state.

In 2010, the Sumitomo Corp. of America bid $82.7 million to deliver nine three-car trains to the system. SMART had planned on spending between $80 million and $90 million on the cars. But SMART scaled back its plan and ordered seven two-car trains at a cost of about $50 million.
Those 14 cars have now arrived at the operations center off Airport Boulevard in Santa Rosa, where they will be stored, maintained and repaired as needed. The four new cars would be delivered by the end of 2018.
Outside of the center, signals and crossing arms are among the hardware now being tested along the 43-mile route. Initial Marin stops as part of the $428 million first phase of the project include downtown San Rafael, the Marin Civic Center and stations in Novato at Hamilton and Atherton/San Marin.

Voters in Marin and Sonoma counties approved a quarter-cent sales tax increase in November 2008 to finance the project that was to stretch from Cloverdale to Larkspur, but the economy and other factors have forced the shorter line.
Funding for a Larkspur extension, however, has been secured, and it could come online by 2018.]
http://www.marinij.com/article/NO/20160321/NEWS/160329964

Toronto (and Peel) can step up to the plate to put this to the Feds to 'take ownership' of SmartTrack/RER (UPX rebranded) and once again, get the best price by piggybacking with Sonoma.

 

[Jonny5]

You all may want to sit down before reading this.

The roof of the new Burlington GO station is finished.

Guessing it's now only 18-24 months until the whole project is done.

 

[mdrejhon]

The transatlantic telegraph cable is now complete!

Charles Lindenburgh just completed his transatlantic flight!

Apollo 11's lunar lander just landed on the moon!

The roof of the Burlington GO station is complete!

 

[mdrejhon]

I didn't know how troublesome these units are!
I heard of the overheating situations but not all of these. So this will put UPX between a rock and a hard place sooner than later for train fleet expansion.

 

[smallspy]

Your operating under the wrong assumption, the Sharyo units have been a disaster.

I can't even begin to list all the issues they've had so far. Many of the engine blocks have been replaced and the units aren't even a year old yet. Several consists have actually caught on fire while in service. And almost every day a revenue consist has to gets swapped out at some point for the spare. The team from Nippon, they still have employees from the company on site, are just praying that the units will hold up well enough until the one year date passes since apparently they'll be off the hook at that point. If not for the problems these unit have had, the on time performance of the line would be close to 100%, they do after all have priority over all other train movements in the corridor.

Smallspy could document the issues for you better than I could since I've generally avoided working on them so I typically don't hear the day to day grumblings. If MX has any sense they will never even consider purchasing these units again.

I could but I'm going to pass, because you've summed up the biggest and most concerning issues thus far. While they are certainly excellent performance-wise on paper, they have not held up nearly as well as they rightfully should have.

Teething issues are to be expected, sure, but the sheer quantity of problems, and the vast variety of their sources, appears to be more than merely "teething". Indeed, there's already rumours floating about that the search is on for replacement equipment.

Minor quibble but it's definitely 80mph, not 79. If the maximum by regulation was 79 then then that's exactly what our documentation would say. They are not in the habit of hand waving off something just because it's off by one mile an hour, everything is absolute.

Indeed, 79mph is an FRA regulation (and a very stringent one at that). 80mph and above in the US requires the use of a separate, automated system to stop the train in the event that it passes a restrictive signal. (And yes, PTC does meet this requirement.) Transport Canada is a lot more fluid about these things, and the nearest comparable major limiting factor in speed limits seems to be 100mph. An 80mph limit in Canada is quite arbitrary by comparison, and caused by things like track alignment, construction and right-of-way width.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Komiksulo]

Wow! I had no idea the Nippon Sharyo trains were so problematic! Maybe they should speed up the electrification, and if necessary lease other trains to keep things going.

 

[mdrejhon]

A great excuse for speeding up electrification!
Do you think the Sharyos can be limped long enough towards that?

Good excuse to cram the trains with fare drops, get standees now, and explain to the public that the fare cuts were wildly successful and 3-coach trainsets are needed, not enough Sharyos to keep up with demand. The public (except Westoners) would tolerate the leasing of a few more diesels as a result to have an all-3-coach fleet with enough reserve trains.

Does UPX perform more reliably as a 2-coach or a 3-coach? I would presume 3 coaches provides some redundancy, that a problematic diesel unit can be shut off and still keep timetable. On the other hand, the complexity of 3 coaches may outweigh. Vegeta/smallspy?

 

[smallspy]

Wow! I had no idea the Nippon Sharyo trains were so problematic! Maybe they should speed up the electrification, and if necessary lease other trains to keep things going.

Lease what? There's nothing available right now that would allow them to replace the units. You're looking at probably close to a year until you can get some rebuilt RDCs available, and that's dependent on the owner wanting to part with them. New rolling stock would take far longer than that to be ready.

Do you think the Sharyos can be limped long enough towards that?

We shall see. There's only another couple of months left in their warranty period.

Good excuse to cram the trains with fare drops, get standees now, and explain to the public that the fare cuts were wildly successful and 3-coach trainsets are needed, not enough Sharyos to keep up with demand. The public (except Westoners) would tolerate the leasing of a few more diesels as a result to have an all-3-coach fleet with enough reserve trains.

Again, where are you getting units from?

Does UPX perform more reliably as a 2-coach or a 3-coach? I would presume 3 coaches provides some redundancy, that a problematic diesel unit can be shut off and still keep timetable. On the other hand, the complexity of 3 coaches may outweigh. Vegeta/smallspy?

3-unit sets get swapped out more frequently, because there is more that can (and does) go wrong with them. Even in a 2-unit set they can limp home, but if a single unit craps out there isn't sufficient power with the remaining vehicles to maintain the schedule - and that's assuming that the failure is drivetrain-based, and not something else which would preclude movement altogether (such as doors or brakes, to name but two).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

Electrification only solves the problem if Cummins or the transmission makers (Voith?) are the ones at fault, surely? And it's not like we're guaranteed that the selected electrical repower will work any more reliably. Look at NJT ALP-44s and Amtrak HHP-8s being taken off line years before they could have been (yes, the HHPs are coming off lease but it's not like Amtrak are sad to see them go back to Bombardier and a fate as razor blades and copper wire).

 

[dowlingm]

Lease what? There's nothing available right now that would allow them to replace the units. You're looking at probably close to a year until you can get some rebuilt RDCs available, and that's dependent on the owner wanting to part with them.

Assuming TRE would release them, their RDCs are pretty recently used - surely it wouldn't take a year to get them roadworthy? They wouldn't be as comfortable as the UPX car fit out, but if Metrolinx were desperate enough to need them, how much would that matter?

 

[Torontovibe]

I didn't realize until fairly recently that you could cross underground from Liberty Village to Exhibition place. (without needing a ticket) It's a good option to have.

 

[steveintoronto]

Vegeta: I stand corrected, and your inside info proves invaluable in not pursuing that option. Wow! Metrolinx have certainly kept that info tight. I'm curious as to the engine probs, as the same engine has performed well in many European and elsewhere examples. The hydraulic xmssn immediately struck me as odd, especially knowing that 'the plan' was to later electrify them. I wonder if cooling is indicated as a chronic problem? That would also limit how hard you could push them. Who knows? They may not even be able to meet their specs, let alone sustain them. Any further info on that most appreciated. There have been complaints about the cost price, here and in Sonoma.

With the lack of any other choice of North Am made heavy DMUs, it might be time to seriously examine light DMUs and/or DEMUs convertible to EMU running catenary or running dual power. The weight and cost tend to work against that though.

Mention of the Budd RDCs is too out there for even me to consider, and their acceleration rate is far too low to hold the timetable. But at this point, with this information, anything might have to be considered. Nippon Sharyo are in a bind with their double-decker coaches failing crash test worthiness in the US right now...Is this the end of heavy DMUs for North Am? If so, time to consider a new working model.

Smallspy writes:
[Indeed, there's already rumours floating about that the search is on for replacement equipment.]

This is a bombshell. Kudos to this forum and members as the press has not reported this. They might now if they're smart enough to read these forums.

Edit to Add: Just digging on my claims of Nippon Sharyo failing crash tests for their double decker coaches, fair amount on-line, it's left some agencies in the lurch, but just tripped across this, four years dated, but I find far more about the UPX models from the Sonoma/SF press than I do from the local Cdn press. Metrolinx keep a tight rein on info:
[...][Metrolinx, in Toronto, Canada, has ordered 18 of the cars at a cost of $75 million to run between downtown Toronto and the city's airport. It paid SMART $758,825 in development costs last March.

Koyasu said the new cars are expected to become a standard in the United States.][...]
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/SR/20120220/ARTICLES/120229958

I thought Nippon-Sharyo had developed these themselves based on prior platforms. Evidently not...this appears, yet again, to be a 'custom order' gone wrong.