GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[Miltonrider]

There is also the issue that KW and Guelph have large universities, with increasing proportions of students commuting from the western suburbs in addition to the Guelph (and KW?) residents who commute into Toronto and back. The GO bus service is struggling to serve the Milton, Brampton and Mississauga students who currently commute daily to UofG now.

Does the Milton line have an equivalent commuter user base both directions all day?

While not large, Laurier Univeristy has a campus and Conestoga college has two campuses. North of the 401 & east of James Snow is massive amounts or large warehousing and commercial offices.

 

[Miltonrider]

This is the point that all the complainers seem to miss. The Milton cost is huge. It was left out of the original envelope because had it been included, it would have gobbled up the envelope, and other areas would have got nothing.

There is a only finite amount of money available, and it has to be spread across multiple corridors. There are signs that even the original envelope is proving hard to fund.

Personally, I support building all the spokes so we have a regional system that competes with all the major highway corridors.

Would I have chosen Milton over Kitchener? No. Because that would have placed all the investment close to the QEW, plus the KW connection is vital to easing 401/407 traffic and developing KW as an alternative to GTA.

Barrie? Stouffville? Again, omit those and there would be a huge gap in the spoke map, and no effective relief of 400 and 404.

Line 1 extension ? Line 2 extension? Line 3? All of these deserve to come ahead of Milton, especially given that Mississauga is getting LRT and various bits of BRT - so hasn't been forgotten in transit space.

The Crosstown extension? OK, I would have built that on the surface and that savings might have enabled Milton.

Hamilton ? Niagara? Bowmanville? Again, these are critical.

Milton over 413? In a heartbeat, but blame Ford, not the original Big Move planners.

It's all water under the bridge and time for the griping to stop. We are certain to see Milton - when the money is available.

- Paul

I think the true point is that Milton is one of, if not, the fastest growing communities in Ontario. It has been for years, and we can’t even get limited weekend service. Another point is that prior to Covid, for a time, the Milton GO line was the 2nd busiest line outside the combined lakeshore service. The reason it has fallen to fourth is because investment has been provided in the other lines. I would guess that if the investment had been made into the Milton line instead of the Kitchener line, that Milton would still be the second busiest. I also imagine that 2WAD service between Toronto & Milton would not only take cars off the 401, but also the 403 and QEW. I mean we are talking about a line that cuts right through the middle of Mississauga.

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service. That now puts it as the Georgetown line. Suddenly the available ridership is less than Milton/Mississauga. Also, Milton is nowhere close to the QEW. Heck, Milton is already built up all the way down to past Britania. It takes a good 30 minutes now to drive from Milton to Bronte GO (which is south of the QEW).

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service. Stouffville, no more deserving than Milton. Heck I’ll be selfish. Less deserving.

Line 1, 2, & 3 extensions are subways and service a different commuting pattern. And let’s be practical. All-day service to Milton has a better chance of happening than a line two extension to Mississauga. How does the Mississauga LRT help anyone from the Meadowvale, Lisgar, Milton area get down to Toronto? Now if they had built the LRT along Derry instead of Hurontario, you may have been on to something.

The crosstown extension services Toronto primarily. I agree, it should have been built all above ground.

Hamilton already has all day service to West Harbor. May not be downtown Hamilton, but it is still Hamilton. Frequent Niagara service will never happen due to the canal being in the way. Bowmanville should be VIA rail service.

I agree, HWY 413 is a waste of tax dollars and should never be built.

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

In reality, this is all political. The government sees the Kitchener line as low hanging fruit. Easier negotiation with CN, then with CP, along with already owing some of the right of way, compared to Milton which they don’t own. I’m thinking Doug also assumes that Milton / Mississauga ridings are his by default, so no need to come through with better GO service. Promise the money, but never come through.

 

[sixrings]

I think the true point is that Milton is one of, if not, the fastest growing communities in Ontario. It has been for years, and we can’t even get limited weekend service. Another point is that prior to Covid, for a time, the Milton GO line was the 2nd busiest line outside the combined lakeshore service. The reason it has fallen to fourth is because investment has been provided in the other lines. I would guess that if the investment had been made into the Milton line instead of the Kitchener line, that Milton would still be the second busiest. I also imagine that 2WAD service between Toronto & Milton would not only take cars off the 401, but also the 403 and QEW. I mean we are talking about a line that cuts right through the middle of Mississauga.

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service. That now puts it as the Georgetown line. Suddenly the available ridership is less than Milton/Mississauga. Also, Milton is nowhere close to the QEW. Heck, Milton is already built up all the way down to past Britania. It takes a good 30 minutes now to drive from Milton to Bronte GO (which is south of the QEW).

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service. Stouffville, no more deserving than Milton. Heck I’ll be selfish. Less deserving.

Line 1, 2, & 3 extensions are subways and service a different commuting pattern. And let’s be practical. All-day service to Milton has a better chance of happening than a line two extension to Mississauga. How does the Mississauga LRT help anyone from the Meadowvale, Lisgar, Milton area get down to Toronto? Now if they had built the LRT along Derry instead of Hurontario, you may have been on to something.

The crosstown extension services Toronto primarily. I agree, it should have been built all above ground.

Hamilton already has all day service to West Harbor. May not be downtown Hamilton, but it is still Hamilton. Frequent Niagara service will never happen due to the canal being in the way. Bowmanville should be VIA rail service.

I agree, HWY 413 is a waste of tax dollars and should never be built.

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

In reality, this is all political. The government sees the Kitchener line as low hanging fruit. Easier negotiation with CN, then with CP, along with already owing some of the right of way, compared to Milton which they don’t own. I’m thinking Doug also assumes that Milton / Mississauga ridings are his by default, so no need to come through with better GO service. Promise the money, but never come through.

This is correct. It was the second busiest line despite its challenges. Somehow we are supposed to ignore that.

 

[crs1026]

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service.

And who would be in a position to impose this on VIA? It was never in the cards. The Big Move is a provincial strategy.

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service.

Ditto

Line 1, 2, & 3 extensions are subways and service a different commuting pattern.

The point is, they cost dollars, just like Milton GO would. They have to be funded from the same envelope. Milton GO would kill at least one of these.

Bowmanville should be VIA rail service.

Getting a bit redundant here.

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

This is where some folks aren't getting it. The service on this line is not scalable. There is no prospect of modest incremental service growth. (There was no prospect of weekend service to Kitchener until ML signed their MOA, for the same reason.)

If the demand exists for full 2WAD, It would be reckless of CPKC to agree to adding a small number of trains knowing that this would only stoke demand, and ML would come back asking for more. Especially since the other lines are working towards 2WAD.... Milton would have to keep pace. I'm sure ML would love CP to over extend itself by taking on too much passenger and harming its freight business.... but CPKC shareholders must be reckoned with. CPKC's reluctance is entirely prudent.

Besides, no one will trust ML to begin an expansion program unless they can enforce its completion. Starting things and then deferring the remainder is government 101 - #Line 4, and the original DRL are examples. CPKC and CN are entirely justified to not be left holding the bag by making a substantial service ccommitment backed by only a small track expansion. I bet the Kitchener MOA has pretty tough cancellation penalties.

Plus, the operating factors which enabled the Erindale turns in past decades have changed. It really is a different railway than twenty years ago.

This is a situation where the line has to be built with enough added capacity to futureproof it. And that's why the price tag is as high as it is. It has to be pretty much all-or-nothing. The only incremental approach might be to build the central section first, and defer completing it all the way to Milton.

Possibly CPKC could be convinced to extend its Mon-Friday pattern to weekends, or run weekend event trains more often.....but that's not really helping much.

- Paul

 

[rdaner]

Confederation GO opens next Tuesday, 27 Oct.

 

[Northern Light]

I think the true point is that Milton is one of, if not, the fastest growing communities in Ontario. It has been for years, and we can’t even get limited weekend service. Another point is that prior to Covid, for a time, the Milton GO line was the 2nd busiest line outside the combined lakeshore service. The reason it has fallen to fourth is because investment has been provided in the other lines. I would guess that if the investment had been made into the Milton line instead of the Kitchener line, that Milton would still be the second busiest. I also imagine that 2WAD service between Toronto & Milton would not only take cars off the 401, but also the 403 and QEW. I mean we are talking about a line that cuts right through the middle of Mississauga.

I think its important here to note that merit aside, people here are tired of unending posts on this subject, another poster here regularly posts on how Mississauga is deprived of proper investment in transit.

That poster, tends to portray Mississauga as a victim of discrimination; and then posit an anti everywhere else in the GTA conspiracy against same.

Many here who do have 'some' influence with government have grown weary and impatient.

This is a forum filled with people who are pro-transit. They are pro transforming suburbia if not into urban paradise, then at least to somewhere that its plausible to live and/or work while being in a one car household, or in select areas, live car-free.

We're collectively people who do support more service for the Milton corridor and would love to see improvement, even incremental, and are happy to concede such investment is overdue.

But that doesn't mean we want to revisit that subject daily, weekly or monthly. Hearing the same thing over and over won't change the minds of the few who aren't supportive.

But may get under the skin of those who have been supportive enough to see them walk away from pushing for improvements.

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service. That now puts it as the Georgetown line. Suddenly the available ridership is less than Milton/Mississauga. Also, Milton is nowhere close to the QEW. Heck, Milton is already built up all the way down to past Britania. It takes a good 30 minutes now to drive from Milton to Bronte GO (which is south of the QEW).

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service. Stouffville, no more deserving than Milton. Heck I’ll be selfish. Less deserving.

Now, the above is actually a great way to persuade people who have the ear of government to say 'don't bother with Milton'. I mean you just took aim a huge swath of people and said, 'You matter less than me, and should have less service'. Not a great tack when seeking support.

All-day service to Milton has a better chance of happening than a line two extension to Mississauga.

Yes it does, and it will happen, and long before any Line 2 extension at all, never mind to Mississauga.

How does the Mississauga LRT help anyone from the Meadowvale, Lisgar, Milton area get down to Toronto? Now if they had built the LRT along Derry instead of Hurontario, you may have been on to something.

It does go to Port Credit GO Station on the Lakeshore West GO Line which does have 2-way, all-day, 30M service to Toronto.

Side note here, Huronario LRT was an investment prioritized by the City of Mississauga, not some outside group imposing it; its also not the only investment in Mississauga in the last 2 decades............

There was the Transitway. There was also considerable investment in and improvement of the Lakeshore West Line which runs through the City.

Hamilton already has all day service to West Harbor. May not be downtown Hamilton, but it is still Hamilton.

The Lakeshore West GO Line may not be north-west Mississauga, but its still Mississauga. (see how that argument works...)

Frequent Niagara service will never happen due to the canal being in the way.

Not that the Canal isn't an obstacle, it is. But very large investments will be made in that corridor in due course. But to make you feel better, Milton will come first.

.I agree, HWY 413 is a waste of tax dollars and should never be built.

100%

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

I agree. I know Paul ( @crs1026 ) differs. But I think there's ample capacity to support it. He is right it would trigger greater demand for more, which I see a feature, not a bug.

In reality, this is all political. The government sees the Kitchener line as low hanging fruit. Easier negotiation with CN, then with CP, along with already owing some of the right of way, compared to Milton which they don’t own. I’m thinking Doug also assumes that Milton / Mississauga ridings are his by default, so no need to come through with better GO service. Promise the money, but never come through.

Share your views w/the Premier, you can reach him. (or his office) but staff will read and tabulate the subjects of incoming correspondence.

Elsewise, let me tell you, Milton is a bit more advanced that you think. But no, that doesn't mean its happening or will happen imminently; only that the stage is set. Its the Premier's call as to what happens when

 

[dowlingm]

I was trying to find a piece on the redevelopment and funding of the NF NY Amtrak station and came across this interesting piece.

1.5 million for refurbishing Niagara Falls GO/VIA station… written in 2019

Falls train station to be redeveloped into ‘one-stop shop’ for transit

A $1.5-million provincial commitment will help redevelop the outdated train station in downtown Niagara Falls into a “multi-modal” hub that will become a “one-stop shop” for transportation, says Mayor Jim Diodati.

www.stcatharinesstandard.ca

Did the province ever spend that promised money?

 

[nfitz]

I was trying to find a piece on the redevelopment and funding of the NF NY Amtrak station and came across this interesting piece.

1.5 million for refurbishing Niagara Falls GO/VIA station… written in 2019

Falls train station to be redeveloped into ‘one-stop shop’ for transit

A $1.5-million provincial commitment will help redevelop the outdated train station in downtown Niagara Falls into a “multi-modal” hub that will become a “one-stop shop” for transportation, says Mayor Jim Diodati.

www.stcatharinesstandard.ca

Did the province ever spend that promised money?

One would think they must have spent some amount of money preceding the recent announcement. And that they couldn't have physically done much for $1.5 million.

 

[dowlingm]

One would think they must have spent some amount of money preceding the recent announcement. And that they couldn't have physically done much for $1.5 million.

You’re almost certainly right - on re-reading the mass transit article, it mentioned that there was a “first phase” jointly funded by the Feds and the town with the province so presumably that got done to get it off everyone’s books. For some reason the similarity in numbers threw me, and I am cynical about things being re-announced but as you say, you won’t get much for that sort of $ anyway

 

[Allandale25]

 

[dowlingm]

Someone in the MTO MO is screaming “what’s this “we” bullshit! Who approved that post without substituting “the Government of Ontario” for that??”

 

[crs1026]

Someone in the MTO MO is screaming “what’s this “we” bullshit! Who approved that post without substituting “the Government of Ontario” for that??”

I'm not sure that "The Government of Ontario ordered us to incur huge costs so people could root for the Blue Jays" is really that appealing a message.

Let the ML guy answer for that, is what the pols preferred.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

I agree. I know Paul ( @crs1026 ) differs. But I think there's ample capacity to support it. He is right it would trigger greater demand for more, which I see a feature, not a bug.

LOL You opened a bag of potato chips here. Some of us can't resist.

In the spirit of raiding the Hallowe'en candy, I found myself asking the fantasy question, and could not resist musing:

"What is the de minimus alteration to the CP Galt Sub that can be done quickly and cheaply and would enable a significant improvement in GO service to Milton"

The minimum change worth discussing is hourly service with the same 'no counterpeak" premise as Kitchener is currently constrained by. (Counterpeak on a two track heavy freight railroad is an unrealistic ask, IMHO, so not worth debating).

So here's my amateur sideline analysis and fantasy plan.

First, the existing track arrangement does (on paper) enable two way hourly service, assuming trains pass between Erindale and Mississauga and again east of Dupont on the ML owned segment. To do this, cp would have to release one track from Milton to Erindale, two tracks from Erindale to Mississauga (that stretch has three) and one track from Mississauga to Dixie. East of Dixie, there is a third track so CP can retain two.

I assumed that the twice-hourly crossover from the north track at Royal York to the southmost track at Scarlett Road is operationally benign, in the same way that CN is able to accommodate hourly 2WAD between Peel and Brampton. There is adequate trackage west of Royal York and east of Scarlett so CP can briefly hold any movements that conflict with hourly GO.

The challenge (and what likely makes CPKC so resistant) is.... with GO taking sole posession of that one track from dawn to midnight, CP has only a single track from Dixie to Milton West - with no passing points. That's a stretch of roughly 20 miles, which is too long a gap given even the (modest) number of freights run at present. Compounding the problem is the level crossings west of Milton West.... in fact, CP would have to hold eastbound freights further west, on the grade up to Guelph Junction so that they don't block the crossings..... and stopping and holding on the grade is not safe.

So the solution has to be to add trackage east of Milton and west of Dixie to give CP the ability to run trains in both directions simultaneously. (The fact that CP does not do so in the current rush hour peak periods can't be used to argue they can do so beyond the curfew times). Note that much of CP's main lines are indeed single track with passing tracks 9-10 miles apart. So, in the zone from Milton East to Dixie, a single 3-mile passing site would leave only two 8.5ish mile gaps, which is no worse than either west of Guelph Jct or north of Bolton or east of Agincourt.

The challenge there becomes, where to find a place to site a passing zone without blocking crossings. (one has to assume that meets may not happen perfectly, and one train may have to stop and wait for more than the legal 5-minute limit on blocking crossings). The number of remaining crossings at grade on this line is why it is so unrealistic to think that CP can run hourly service by just dispatching differently and trying to interleave freight and passenger trains on the existing tracks. And the cost of grade separations for these is one part of why ML gets sticker shock on this line.

My fantasy ask of CP

1) Signalise the service track between Milton GO and the Milton GO yard, so it can be used as the dedicated GO track, giving CP a passing track east from Milton West
2) New junction just west of Fifth Line that routes GO trains on and off the main, giving CP a 2.3 mile passing segment east of Milton West and letting eastbound freights advance to about mp 29.7 before holding
3) New third track from just east of 10th Line to Britannia Road - gives a roughly 3.5 mile passing space free of level crossings and not requiring new major bridgework that is roughly spaced halfway between Dixie and Milton West. From Google Earth, the land appears to be favourable, there are no level crossings, and the only major civil work required would be three small bridges over creeks. (Assuming no utility shifts or impact on sewers etc)
4) I also considered a new third track west of 9th line. That one would be a bit short, CPKC might not feel it would be adequate. But if built it would only need two smaller bridges over creeks, so not an unrealistic capital spend.

As a sidewalk observer, I would think that is all that CPKC really needs to keep its trains moving. Others can propose alternative layouts - the challenges will be in how expensive and time consuming they would be, especially since just about any other additions will demand grade separations and/or major bridges.

My point is simply, yes this can be done but there would then be absolutely no room to move beyond the hourly premise without spending a lot of money. Even my single track ask of CPKC may be laughed out of the Boardroom.

Again, my personal view is that such a scheme will take 3 years to design and build, and will only bring demands for 30 minute or better service and counterpeak service. So jumping to do this as a stopgap will only delay doing the bigger and more detailed negotiation and design to get to true 2WAD with more attractive headways.

And again, suggesting bihourly service or three or four runs staggered across the day does not offer enough marketability and people moved to be worth the effort.

Hence, in the end, I continue to argue: swallow hard, understand there will be a wait, and then get this designed and built with a full solution in mind from the start.

- Paul

PS apologies for the substandard artwork. Purple - new track proposed. Blue - needed bridging, Black - Constraining level crossings. Green - GO Red - CPKC

 

[drum118]

LOL You opened a bag of potato chips here. Some of us can't resist.

In the spirit of raiding the Hallowe'en candy, I found myself asking the fantasy question, and could not resist musing:

"What is the de minimus alteration to the CP Galt Sub that can be done quickly and cheaply and would enable a significant improvement in GO service to Milton"

The minimum change worth discussing is hourly service with the same 'no counterpeak" premise as Kitchener is currently constrained by. (Counterpeak on a two line heavy freight railroad is an unrealistic ask, IMHO, so not worth debating).

So here's my amateur sideline analysis and fantasy plan.

First, the existing track arrangement does (on paper) enable two way hourly service, assuming trains pass between Erindale and Mississauga and again east of Dupont on the ML owned segment. To do this, cp would have to release one track from Milton to Erindale, two tracks from Erindale to Mississauga (that stretch has three) and one track from Mississauga to Dixie. East of Dixie, there is a third track so CP retains two.

I assumed that the twice-hourly crossover from the north track at Royal York to the southmost track at Scarlett Road is operationally benign, in the same way that CN is able to accommodate hourly 2WAD between Peel and Brampton. There is adequate trackage west of Royal York and east of Scarlett so CP can hold any freights that cross paths with hourly GO.

The challenge (and what likely makes CPKC so resistant) is.... with GO taking sole posession of that one track dawn to midnight, CP has only a single track from Dixie to Milton West with no passing points. That's a stretch of roughly 20 miles, which is too long a gap given the (modest) number of freights run at present. Compounding the problem is the level crossings west of Milton West.... in fact, CP would have to hold eastbound freights on the grade up to Guelph Junction so that they don't block the crossings..... and stopping and holding on the grade is not safe.

So the solution has to be to add trackage east of Milton and west of Dixie to give CP the ability to run trains in both directions simultaneously. (The fact that CP does not do so in the current rush hour peak periods can't be used to argue they can do so beyond the curfew times). The nice part is that much of CP's main lines are indeed single track with passing tracks 9-10 miles apart. So, in the zone from Milton East to Dixie, a single 3-mile passing site would leave only two 8.5ish mile gaps, which is no worse than either west of Guelph Jct or north of Bolton or east of Agincourt.

And the challenge there is, where to find a place to site a passing zone without blocking crossings. (one has to assume that meets may not happen perfectly, and one train may have to stop and wait for more than the legal 5-minute limit on blocking crossings). The number of remaining crossings at grade on this line is why it is so unrealistic to think that CP can run hourly service by just dispatching differently and trying to interleave freight and passenger trains on the existing tracks. And the cost of grade separation is one part of why ML gets sticker shock on this line.

My fantasy ask of CP

1) Signalise the service track between Milton GO and the Milton GO yard, so it can be used as the dedicated GO track, giving CP a passing track east from Milton West
2) New junction just west of Fifth Line that routes GO trains on and off the main, giving CP a 2.3 mile passing segment east of Milton West and letting eastbound freights advance to about mp 29.7 before holding
3) New third track from just east of 10th Line to Britannia Road - gives a roughly 3.5 mile passing space free of level crossings and not requiring new major bridgework that is roughly spaced halfway between Dixie and Milton West. From Google Earth, the land appears to be favourable, there are no level crossings, and the only major civil work required would be three small bridges over creeks. (Assuming no utility shifts or impact on sewers etc)
4) I also considered a new third track west of 9th line. That one would be a bit short, CPKC might not feel it would be adequate. But if built it would only need two smaller bridges over creeks, so not an unrealistic capital spend.

As a sidewalk observer, I would think that is all that CPKC really needs to keep its trains moving. Others can propose alternative layouts - the challenges will be in how expensive and time consuming they would be, especially since just about any other additions will demand grade separations and/or major bridges. My point is simply, there is absolutely no room to move beyond the hourly premise without spending a lot of money. Even my single track ask of CPKC may be laughed out of the Boardroom.

Again, my personal view is that such a scheme will take 3 years to design and build, and will only bring demands for 30 minute or better service and counterpeak service. So jumping to do this as a stopgap will only delay doing the bigger and more detailed negotiation and design to get to true 2WAD with more attractive headways.

And again, suggesting bihourly service or three or four runs staggered across the day does not offer enough marketability and people moved to be worth the effort.

Hence, in the end, I continue to argue: swallow hard, understand there will be a wait, and then get this designed and built with a full solution in mind from the start.

- Paul

PS apologies for the substandard artwork. Purple - new track proposed. Blue - needed bridging, Black - Constraining level crossings. Green - GO Red - CPKC

View attachment 690905

As it stands today you have a 3rd track north of the 403 to Confederation with the Confederation bridge built for 4 tracks as well the other other two as well two crade crossing.

Cooksville Station is ready for a 3rd track with work needed between the station and Confederation. A bridge is require over Huontario that would take the new 3rd track east of Hurontario where a 3rd track used to be and over a 3rd track bridge over Cawthra that was built well over a decade ago..

To take a New 3rd track east of Cawthra to Dixie Station reuires work to put it in and acroos two grade crossing.

From Dixie station rewires work as well some bidges to connect to the current 3rd track west of 427.

You now have a fully 3rd track from the Humber to the norrth of the 403.

From the 403 to Britannia is a problem area and not cheap to fix at a cost of about $500 million

From Britannia to the Meadowvale Station you are dealing with CPKC yard.

From Meadowvale to Lisgar Station the bridge over Winston Churchill Rd is a 4 track bridge and there is a plan to 4 track the 9th line crossing. Lisgar is setup as centre platform but requires tunnele work.

From Lisgar to Milton there is/was a plan for a Trafalgar Station and that could be part of a 3rd line from Lisgar to Milton as well for the Milton yard.

There are a number of crossing that needs to be separate or close but that a differnt cost that will not effect 30-60 minutes all day service both ways.

The cost back in 2014 to 4track the corridor was $2.1 Billion and was to be completed by 2020.

By rights, the current Hurontario bridges need replacing so there is a clear span over Hurontario to allow a walkway over Hurontario as well access to the LRT Station that was plan for and then scrap some years ago. Based on what I see first hand, there isn't enough room to expand 50 meter platform to 100 when it come time to add a second car ariund 2040 with the current bridge in place. The current bridges are over 100 years now,

 

[Aplus23]

It’s always a cost thing when it comes to Mississauga. We can bury eglinton LRT. We can build underground the Vaughan extension instead of above. We can build the danforth extension as a subway vs a rt conversion. We can bury downtown Brampton lrt. BUT God forbid we spend actual money serving the sixth biggest city in Canada.

now you sound like how I sound for Scarborough, but you give backlash to Scarborough, and Scarborough is actually in the city limits of Toronto, unlike sauga. FYI, I'm for transit upgrades in Sauga too