GO 2.0 Expansion Plan

[cplchanb]

My GO Future Plan (GFP)

1. Electrification of all lines within the boundaries of the amalgamated city of Toronto

this is diabolical thinking....go transit serves all of the GTHA and there is double track deep into the 905.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

We all have our favourites, but my general test of your plan is - how does this order compare to
- needs for reduction in highway congestion,
- matching to density and population growth
- a fair balance for spending between 416 and 905
- achievable cash flows for capital investment

I would defer both Bolton and Havelock, and move forward regional connections to Niagara, Kitchener, London, and east of Durham.

- Paul

Outside of improving the existing line to Hamilton/Toronto, what other lines do you suggest serve Niagara Falls? Niagara Falls to Welland? I do think that there could be a market for a Welland line following the canal and serving Port Colbourne, Welland, Thorold, and St Catherines. Though I don't think that would be in the purvue of GO transit, it would probably be it's own type of service.

Similarly London might have potential for a GO style regional rail but IMO is outside the GTA, and like Welland might be better served with a different kind of service from current GO trains.

 

[adrianaliu]

does anyone know if there's a definitive list anywhere of the new go stations actually moving forward in the 416 and inner 905? some seem to have been cancelled and it's difficult to keep track of what is still happening

 

[crs1026]

Outside of improving the existing line to Hamilton/Toronto, what other lines do you suggest serve Niagara Falls? Niagara Falls to Welland? I do think that there could be a market for a Welland line following the canal and serving Port Colbourne, Welland, Thorold, and St Catherines. Though I don't think that would be in the purvue of GO transit, it would probably be it's own type of service.

Similarly London might have potential for a GO style regional rail but IMO is outside the GTA, and like Welland might be better served with a different kind of service from current GO trains.

I think we have to be realistic and pragmatic about how far the network extends beyond the backbone GO line, and how we grow ridership and first-last mile services. If you ask me which ones belong in a 2050 plan, I would say "all of them". If you ask me to put down money on which ones actually get built, I would be far less expansive. It has to be an incremental process.

The reality is that in the broader areas, we still have an effective and useful solution that gets enough people to the GO station: the automobile. Only when parking lots are full, and parking garages are no longer cost effective, will people abandon that modality (I would certainly be offering free transfers, charging for parking, and not overbuilding garage space, but it's a balance). And then we still have a cheap and effective upgraded service for a few years: the bus.

The obvious first step is to begin adding frequent and convenient bus services feeding the GO stations. I am hopeful that some of the mini-bus on-demand trials will be successful and create a rapid upsurge in demand, to the point of every suburb soon demanding one. As to the cross routes suggested (Hamilton-Brantford, Hamilton-Kitchener, Guelph-Hamilton etc) it's nice to dream about some reincarnation of the interurbans, or some LRT variant.... but the immediate need is good 15-minute bus service on all of these.... and then let demand and frustration with the road congestion create demand for higher-order solutions. We can draw those lines on a map, but selling them and raising funding is a different proposition.

I don't see any route in the Niagara area that can offer the ridership potential to build new corridors just yet. Extending peak GO service beyond Hamilton Center towards Welland is an interesting idea, especially if combined with express to Toronto. But adding that capacity to the freight line is in itself is costly and requires an interface with CPKC that will take time to sell and cultivate.

London is crying to be the hub for regional bus lines. Again, I see no need to jump to building rail - but building a much more intensive feeder system into VIA stations in Stratford, Woodstock, Brantford, Ingersoll, Chatham would definitely move the needle on the business case for better rail service on both the Brantford and Kitchener lines. Until 2050, it will be a challenge just to upgrade those main lines to provide more frequent regional service on top of the freight capacity required.

The 2075 plan will be really cool - but it may take that long.

- Paul

 

[urbancog]

does anyone know if there's a definitive list anywhere of the new go stations actually moving forward in the 416 and inner 905? some seem to have been cancelled and it's difficult to keep track of what is still happening

This City of Toronto page states that the stations "in development" are: East Harbour, Bloor-Lansdowne, St. Clair-Old Weston. With Finch-Kennedy & King-Liberty deferred due to lack of budget.

Other GO stations being built by Metrolinx within the City boundaries are Caledonia (at the intersection of Line 5 and Barrie GO Line) & Woodbine (Kitchener Line, UP Line @ Hwy27).

 

[robmausser]

This City of Toronto page states that the stations "in development" are: East Harbour, Bloor-Lansdowne, St. Clair-Old Weston. With Finch-Kennedy & King-Liberty deferred due to lack of budget.

Other GO stations being built by Metrolinx within the City boundaries are Caledonia (at the intersection of Line 5 and Barrie GO Line) & Woodbine (Kitchener Line, UP Line @ Hwy27).

I always found St.Clair over King/Liberty surprising. I felt like that station had more potential.

 

[taylortbb]

I always found St.Clair over King/Liberty surprising. I felt like that station had more potential.

I'm pretty sure (based on other discussions I've read) that the city is playing chicken with the province on King-Liberty. The city regrets ever agreeing to pay capital costs for GO stations due to Smart Track, generally the province funds them. So by the city passing on King-Liberty they're betting the province just builds it on their dime. SCOW on the other hand, the city knows it's not important enough for the province to step in.

 

[ShonTron]

I'm pretty sure (based on other discussions I've read) that the city is playing chicken with the province on King-Liberty. The city regrets ever agreeing to pay capital costs for GO stations due to Smart Track, generally the province funds them. So by the city passing on King-Liberty they're betting the province just builds it on their dime. SCOW on the other hand, the city knows it's not important enough for the province to step in.

The official reason was that SCOW was essential for the planned high rise development in the area, along with road reconfigurations. I’m not sure why King-Liberty, already surrounded by poorly served high rise development didn’t matter though.

 

[duty free]

I'm pretty sure (based on other discussions I've read) that the city is playing chicken with the province on King-Liberty. The city regrets ever agreeing to pay capital costs for GO stations due to Smart Track, generally the province funds them. So by the city passing on King-Liberty they're betting the province just builds it on their dime. SCOW on the other hand, the city knows it's not important enough for the province to step in.

Toronto never should've had to pay for any GO stations. Kind of ridiculous honestly that they ever agreed to that.

Was this Tory just pretending that SmartTrack was still a thing?

 

[crs1026]

Toronto never should've had to pay for any GO stations. Kind of ridiculous honestly that they ever agreed to that.

Was this Tory just pretending that SmartTrack was still a thing?

We have a whole thread devoted to that theme, so I won't repeat it all. You can read up if interested.

But yes, Tory's plan to execute ST was plain stupid from the start, and after being shown that it was ill advised he then went through hoops to save face by salvaging something he could claim was ST all along.

His assertion that GO should build more stations within the 416 was more reasonable, but since the Province wasn't movable, if no one else will do it, the City took the high road and had to do it themselves - likely paying thru the nose in the process. That part is honourable albeit disfunctional.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Folks do we trust Metrolinx to execute any of this?

 

[duty free]

Folks do we trust Metrolinx to execute any of this?

No, absolutely not.

If you're envisioning a Paris RER like system for the GTHA with trains running at 2 to 3 minute intervals on every line, then that's never happening. I believe that with max 15 minute frequencies, they'll never electrify the any of the network because it doesn't make fiscal sense (to them). It seems like they'll double the tracks, run 15 minute frequencies if that and call it a day.

Preferably we'd have an amazing RER network through running past Union for every GO line, but I'd settle for something like Montreal's REM at this point rather than nothing. Diesel trains could theoretically terminate in the 905.

 

[TOtramz]

Is there any way to tell metrolinx that the livestream for the board meeting has no sound?

Can’t hear what they’re saying about go expansion

 

[Coolibop]

Is there any way to tell metrolinx that the livestream for the board meeting has no sound?

Can’t hear what they’re saying about go expansion

Anyone starting to listen late but before they post the full... looses sound about the 36 minute mark.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No, absolutely not.

If you're envisioning a Paris RER like system for the GTHA with trains running at 2 to 3 minute intervals on every line, then that's never happening. I believe that with max 15 minute frequencies, they'll never electrify the any of the network because it doesn't make fiscal sense (to them). It seems like they'll double the tracks, run 15 minute frequencies if that and call it a day.

Preferably we'd have an amazing RER network through running past Union for every GO line, but I'd settle for something like Montreal's REM at this point rather than nothing. Diesel trains could theoretically terminate in the 905.

Agreed.

I think they can try to add a siding where possible, or triple where possible, and go to 10 minutes.