General railway discussions

[roger1818]

^With the Maple Leaf having been gone for so long, I haven't had a chance to see for myself - but my question is, what level of technology do the agents use when they clear trainloads of people these days?

My impression with air and auto travel is, the agents are bound to their computer terminals to tell them if a person is OK to admit. Their verbal questions tend to be peripheral to the computer's decision.

When I flew back from LAX last week, there was a passport check on the gangway, with border service officers using handheld phone-like devices to scan passports. But LAX probably has lots of wifi and similar base units installed.

I wonder if the IT is as much a challenge to clearing customs on a moving train as the physical security issues are.

- Paul

I have never been on the Maple Leaf, but given that it is only 700m between the Niagara Falls stations on either side of the boarder, I don't think there is much time to clear customs while the train is moving. I suspect they do all of the customs and immigration work while stopped at the station on the US side of the boarder. Do they require everyone to get off or do the agents get onto the train?

 

[drum118]

I have never been on the Maple Leaf, but given that it is only 700m between the Niagara Falls stations on either side of the boarder, I don't think there is much time to clear customs while the train is moving. I suspect they do all of the customs and immigration work while stopped at the station on the US side of the boarder. Do they require everyone to get off or do the agents get onto the train?

They get off coming into Canada to the point the platform is off limit to everyone.

Never been in the US when the train arrives from both direction. Most cases, the trains hours late arriving from New York when I am there and don't hang around for it.

 

[smallspy]

I have never been on the Maple Leaf, but given that it is only 700m between the Niagara Falls stations on either side of the boarder, I don't think there is much time to clear customs while the train is moving. I suspect they do all of the customs and immigration work while stopped at the station on the US side of the boarder. Do they require everyone to get off or do the agents get onto the train?

The last several times that I have taken the train, upon arriving at Niagara Falls Canada from the US we were all disembarked, and made to go past a pair of Customs Officers located at kiosks - not unlike those at the airports - within a separate part of the station.

I haven't taken the train since they've opened the new station, but with the old system when arriving at the American side from Canada, the train was boarded by a number of US Customs Officers who went passenger to passenger. They would select a dozen or so passengers for "enhanced screening", taking them and their luggage into the building. My understanding is that with the new building they will be able to operate much the same way as the Canadian officials do, but I haven't yet had the chance to experience that.

Dan

 

[rbt]

^With the Maple Leaf having been gone for so long, I haven't had a chance to see for myself - but my question is, what level of technology do the agents use when they clear trainloads of people these days?

Last time I took the Maple Leaf (Toronto to Buffalo) they took everyone off the train, sent all baggage through X-Ray machines, and the train itself was taken away and returned later (I presume it went through an industrial/cargo X-Ray scanner as well).

Customs wasn't paying more than minimal attention to the people.

 

[roger1818]

Last time I took the Maple Leaf (Toronto to Buffalo) they took everyone off the train, sent all baggage through X-Ray machines, and the train itself was taken away and returned later (I presume it went through an industrial/cargo X-Ray scanner as well).

Customs wasn't paying more than minimal attention to the people.

If everyone (and their luggage) have to get off the train anyway, what is the point of having it run as a single train between Toronto and NYC? Why not just build a preclearance facility on one side of the boarder of the other, and have all trains terminate at that station? It would save them from having to X-ray the train if everyone was transferring to a different train.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I’ve honestly thought that in the short to medium term by far the most practical solution in both Niagara and Detroit would be extending the Canadian services to just the other side of the border with connection to Amtrak rather than the deeply compromised single seat ride. GO* to Niagara Falls and Via to Michigan Central in other words.

*yes, I know GO is legally a provincial railway. This is not a show stopper, just something that needs a workaround. The WORST case scenario being Niagara services transferring to Via operation under contract to GO.

 

[LNahid2000]

I’ve honestly thought that in the short to medium term by far the most practical solution in both Niagara and Detroit would be extending the Canadian services to just the other side of the border with connection to Amtrak rather than the deeply compromised single seat ride. GO* to Niagara Falls and Via to Michigan Central in other words.

*yes, I know GO is legally a provincial railway. This is not a show stopper, just something that needs a workaround. The WORST case scenario being Niagara services transferring to Via operation under contract to GO.

This would be super useful to transfer between Amtrak's other services and GO as well. Currently you have to do this if you don't have a car and Nexus:

 

[innsertnamehere]

The ideal for cross border train travel would be "sealed" train cars which speed up pre-clearance. Allow passengers from Toronto to clear at Union, and enter a sealed train car. Any passengers heading to the US who board between Toronto and the border (say, at Oakville or Hamilton), could enter a different "sealed" car which only allows boarding, with an on-board customs officer clearing these people. By the time the train gets to the border, hopefully most have cleared and the stop is minimal to clear any stragglers. After crossing the border, these train cars can be "unsealed" and operate as normal, with American passengers being able to purchase tickets in the cars.

For the opposite direction, the opposite case. Have a customs officer travel from NYC to Niagara Falls on a "sealed" car or two, clearing anyone who boards the car. Those making domestic trips have unsealed train cars they can use.

If there are any issues with passengers which can't be cleared prior to the border, they get ejected at Niagara Falls for further clearance and have to take the next train to complete their trip, be it a GO train or another domestic Amtrak train.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The ideal for cross border train travel would be "sealed" train cars which speed up pre-clearance. Allow passengers from Toronto to clear at Union, and enter a sealed train car. Any passengers heading to the US who board between Toronto and the border (say, at Oakville or Hamilton), could enter a different "sealed" car which only allows boarding, with an on-board customs officer clearing these people. By the time the train gets to the border, hopefully most have cleared and the stop is minimal to clear any stragglers. After crossing the border, these train cars can be "unsealed" and operate as normal, with American passengers being able to purchase tickets in the cars.

For the opposite direction, the opposite case. Have a customs officer travel from NYC to Niagara Falls on a "sealed" car or two, clearing anyone who boards the car. Those making domestic trips have unsealed train cars they can use.

If there are any issues with passengers which can't be cleared prior to the border, they get ejected at Niagara Falls for further clearance and have to take the next train to complete their trip, be it a GO train or another domestic Amtrak train.

Difficulty of negotiations aside, the big problem is that this would only ever be something that could run a couple times a day. Fixed control points can allow the railroad to operate almost completely independently of what happens with border control.

 

[lenaitch]

I guess one of the problems I have with mobile or enroute pre-clearance is how they handle the failures. You drive up to a border point and they refuse entry, you turn around and go home. You show up at Pearson and fail pre-clearance, you go home. You board a train that leaves the station and, enroute, you are deemed unsuitable for entry, what do they do with you? I suppose it would b ok if they dropped you at a station where you could call a cab or grab return train. I assume you would be eligible for a partial ticket refund.

 

[drum118]

I guess one of the problems I have with mobile or enroute pre-clearance is how they handle the failures. You drive up to a border point and they refuse entry, you turn around and go home. You show up at Pearson and fail pre-clearance, you go home. You board a train that leaves the station and, enroute, you are deemed unsuitable for entry, what do they do with you? I suppose it would b ok if they dropped you at a station where you could call a cab or grab return train. I assume you would be eligible for a partial ticket refund.

If the person is not allow in X country, you can't drop them off at the next station to catch a return train or cab. If they are refused entrance, they will have to be in police or boarder personnel care and escorted back to X country by car. If there is more than one, can be an issue depending on number and luggage.

There will be no refund on the balance of the ticket if refused. People arriving by air are return at our cost on the next plane and held in a special room until the flight.

I have been on trains in Europe where I have been inspected on trains. Have seen people removed from the train at the next stop with the agents staying with them. No idea what happen next as I on my way to where I am going to in the first place.

To let someone to return to x country on their own after being refused is opening the door wide open to illegally entering the country and hiding.

I have been in someone car who was turn away at the boarder. None of of use knew of the person reason for refusal until it happen. Took the person 18 months to deal with the issue before they could get into the US.

 

[DSC]

I guess one of the problems I have with mobile or enroute pre-clearance is how they handle the failures. You drive up to a border point and they refuse entry, you turn around and go home. You show up at Pearson and fail pre-clearance, you go home. You board a train that leaves the station and, enroute, you are deemed unsuitable for entry, what do they do with you? I suppose it would b ok if they dropped you at a station where you could call a cab or grab return train. I assume you would be eligible for a partial ticket refund.

Many years ago I was travelling in Europe (mostly by rail) and took a night train from, I think, Koln to (West) Berlin. It passed through what was East Germany (DDR) but if one had a (full) UK passport you did not need a visa. I had a full UK one, my chum had a simplified UK one (used to travel to Western Europe only). Well after midnight we were about to enter the DDR and the train stopped in the middle of what looked like empty country and the (West) German border guards came through to be sure everyone had the right documents. We were thrown off the train. As it had already passed the last station we had to walk back (a km?) to the last station. We walked into the station restaurant and were greeted by the staff - who thought we were escaping East Germans who had managed to walk across the border. We did not get a refund on our tickets!

 

[drum118]

"Quebec budget 2022: $1M to study customs clearance at Central Station | Montreal Gazette" https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/quebec-budget-2022-1m-to-study-customs-clearance-at-central-station/wcm/8ede6373-57ad-4008-909f-e4ef7742d51d/amp/

 

[lenaitch]

If the person is not allow in X country, you can't drop them off at the next station to catch a return train or cab. If they are refused entrance, they will have to be in police or boarder personnel care and escorted back to X country by car. If there is more than one, can be an issue depending on number and luggage.

There will be no refund on the balance of the ticket if refused. People arriving by air are return at our cost on the next plane and held in a special room until the flight.

I have been on trains in Europe where I have been inspected on trains. Have seen people removed from the train at the next stop with the agents staying with them. No idea what happen next as I on my way to where I am going to in the first place.

To let someone to return to x country on their own after being refused is opening the door wide open to illegally entering the country and hiding.

I have been in someone car who was turn away at the boarder. None of of use knew of the person reason for refusal until it happen. Took the person 18 months to deal with the issue before they could get into the US.

I was more thinking of the enroute pre-clearance to happen before a pax enters the other country; say Grimsby or someplace. You're right about airports and their holding facilities. I guess something similar would have to exist at train stations.

 

[crs1026]

I was more thinking of the enroute pre-clearance to happen before a pax enters the other country; say Grimsby or someplace. You're right about airports and their holding facilities. I guess something similar would have to exist at train stations.

I would be quite happy with a rail service that required pre-submission of travel documents for scrutiny by government authorities ahead of check-in or issuing of boarding passes. Some of that seems to happen with air travel already.
I suspect that some treaty or law prevents this and enshrines a right to show up at the border unannounced and be processed. That's really problematic for our rail crossings where the entire train has to be held, until everybody is cleared.
Montreal is the most vexing location because the border is at a distance from the station. and there is no other public transportation available if one is held back. If people are cleared after arrival, though, it's really no different than an airport - the facility will just have to have the necessary inspection areas and holding facility built in.
From Niagara Falls, there is at least the option of continuing by cab or bus once one's status has been cleared up after the train leaves.

- Paul