General railway discussions

[just east of the creek]

Stonecliffe Station….once. I was in Stonecliffe the other day, and although all the rail is gone, the road bed survives. . In my fantasy world, the rail is resurrected to handle hot shot freight bypassing Toronto and

heading eastbound or westbound, , my franchised sea to sea ‘Canadian’, and commuter rail from Deep River to Ottawa.

Although the rail is officially shutdown just downriver from Mattawa, my glimpses of it from the car led me to believe it may exist through to Deux Rivières. Not sure that is right but did not have the time to stop and double check.

 

[micheal_can]

Stonecliffe Station….once. I was in Stonecliffe the other day, and although all the rail is gone, the road bed survives. . In my fantasy world, the rail is resurrected to handle hot shot freight bypassing Toronto andView attachment 573675View attachment 573676View attachment 573677View attachment 573678 heading eastbound or westbound, , my franchised sea to sea ‘Canadian’, and commuter rail from Deep River to Ottawa.

Although the rail is officially shutdown just downriver from Mattawa, my glimpses of it from the car led me to believe it may exist through to Deux Rivières. Not sure that is right but did not have the time to stop and double check.

The tracks are gone east of Mattawa. The bridges are still there and used by snowmobiles.

Although it may be a good idea, CP and CN abandoned those lines due to trying to save money on their track maintenance.

 

[lenaitch]

For those trainloads of deepriverians (riverites?) - population 4,100 - commuting to Ottawa.

 

[micheal_can]

For those trainloads of deepriverians (riverites?) - population 4,100 - commuting to Ottawa.

Would Pembroke with a population of 14,000 be worth it?

 

[NW87]

Wakefield Canada, Inc

 

[crs1026]

Would Pembroke with a population of 14,000 be worth it?

Not so long as the 417 is (relatively) uncongested.
There may be enough population out that way to fill a commuter train or two, considering the overall population that lives out that way and works in Ottawa, not necessarily living right "in town". However - the rail line in Ottawa does not go right through a major employment center, and those commuters collect from a wide area and fan out to any number of works sites at a distance from the rail line, so the first/last mile dynamics will never match the convenience of the car for those commuters. Work at home is a factor also.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

As mentioned, running the train as an express between the border and Toronto might not make financial sense for VIA.

The issue is the lack of space for building a pre-clearence facility and sealed off platform at Union Station.

The only solution I see to making convenient cross-border services to NYC and Chicago viable is to build border facilities in Buffalo (would necessitate crossing the border at Fort Erie rather than Niagara Falls, but the latter is irrelevant for international travel) and Detroit and have passengers change between Canadian and American trains there…

 

[roger1818]

I didn't think Via had much say as to what any of the Amtrak trains into Canada did.

VIA operates the Maple Leaf north of the boarder. If Amtrak wanted to run an express train the 84 miles (135 km) from Niagara Falls, NY to Union, they probably could (with appropriate permission from the host railway and Transport Canada), but I suspect the economics don't make sense to do so.

 

[micheal_can]

Not so long as the 417 is (relatively) uncongested.
There may be enough population out that way to fill a commuter train or two, considering the overall population that lives out that way and works in Ottawa, not necessarily living right "in town". However - the rail line in Ottawa does not go right through a major employment center, and those commuters collect from a wide area and fan out to any number of works sites at a distance from the rail line, so the first/last mile dynamics will never match the convenience of the car for those commuters. Work at home is a factor also.

- Paul

417 is not the problem for congestion. Highway 17 west of ii is. What would be cheaper ~200km of reactivating a rail line or 60 km of twinning? I think the twinning still wins.

 

[lenaitch]

Would Pembroke with a population of 14,000 be worth it?

No clue. Population isn't the determinant - travel and commuting patterns are. It's been quite a few years since I spent anytime around Ottawa but got the sense that a lot of 'the burbs' are still within the (geographically very large) city, with Arnprior and Carleton Place picking up as well. Pembroke is still 150 km away.

To add pax rail to an existing line is one thing. To re-lay a line is quite another. It becomes a little more complicated since the former CN route crosses into Quebec then back out.

The is a freight spur still existing to Arnprior which I think the City of Ottawa is at least a partial owner. It seems they don't see a need for pax rail on their own line to serve that quadrant.

 

[micheal_can]

No clue. Population isn't the determinant - travel and commuting patterns are. It's been quite a few years since I spent anytime around Ottawa but got the sense that a lot of 'the burbs' are still within the (geographically very large) city, with Arnprior and Carleton Place picking up as well. Pembroke is still 150 km away.

To add pax rail to an existing line is one thing. To re-lay a line is quite another. It becomes a little more complicated since the former CN route crosses into Quebec then back out.

The is a freight spur still existing to Arnprior which I think the City of Ottawa is at least a partial owner. It seems they don't see a need for pax rail on their own line to serve that quadrant.

If the old line was still there and still up to passenger service levels of maintenance, and if there were any slots, would it then become much easier to make the case for a trial run? I know, there are a lot of ifs.

 

[crs1026]

If the old line was still there and still up to passenger service levels of maintenance,

It isn't up to that standard, and that's the rub. Any new service needs investment. That needs a business case analysis, and competes with other needs - eg. Spending the same money on improving municipal transit in Ottawa would likely show a higher cost-benefit.

and if there were any slots, would it then become much easier to make the case for a trial run? I know, there are a lot of ifs.

Trial runs create expectations, meaning they are risky to public agencies. Sure, the Barrie GO line happened because a Toronto lawyer rented a train for one day and sold it out - thereby disproving CN's position that there was no ridership - but that's a one-of from the sixties. Look at what happened when GO tried to run to London, without setting the table first. These days the demand will have to be proven and well accepted before any service were attempted.

I think you are thinking wishfully but not looking through the lens of how things get funded. Just because there is a railway line (current or railbanked) does not mean there is an opportunity to create a service.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

It isn't up to that standard, and that's the rub. Any new service needs investment. That needs a business case analysis, and competes with other needs - eg. Spending the same money on improving municipal transit in Ottawa would likely show a higher cost-benefit.

I know. We can look at it in 2 ways. One is how it sits now, vs how it was before it was ripped up. Right now, not worth it. My question though was what about back then. Would it have been worth it?

Trial runs create expectations, meaning they are risky to public agencies. Sure, the Barrie GO line happened because a Toronto lawyer rented a train for one day and sold it out - thereby disproving CN's position that there was no ridership - but that's a one-of from the sixties. Look at what happened when GO tried to run to London, without setting the table first. These days the demand will have to be proven and well accepted before any service were attempted.

I could go on a rant about the silliness of the London trial. The one sentence question version is: Who starts work after 9am and is done before 5pm?Answer: Not many.

I think you are thinking wishfully but not looking through the lens of how things get funded. Just because there is a railway line (current or railbanked) does not mean there is an opportunity to create a service.

- Paul

There is always an opportunity. It is whether that opportunity is feasible. That is why I asked whether even going to Pembroke would be worth it. I feel what should happen is GO should start running commuter buses.That should be something the area around Ottawa already has.

 

[roger1818]

The is a freight spur still existing to Arnprior which I think the City of Ottawa is at least a partial owner. It seems they don't see a need for pax rail on their own line to serve that quadrant.

The Renfrew Subdivision ROW from Nepean Junction to Arnprior is owned by the city of Ottawa and the track on the ROW is owned by the Arnprior and Nepean Railway (ANR), which is fully owned by Nylene (formerly BASF), the one and only customer on the line. The city also purchased the abandoned part of the Beachburg Subdivision from Nepean Junction (mile 14.50) to the Ottawa River. According to CN's current three year plan (released May 23, 2024), they still operate the Beachburg Subdivision from Mile 6.00 to 14.50, but plan to discontinue it, and the city has also shown interest in purchasing it as well (CN had also indicated their plan to discontinue it in their previous (2019) three year plan).

 

[lenaitch]

I know. We can look at it in 2 ways. One is how it sits now, vs how it was before it was ripped up. Right now, not worth it. My question though was what about back then. Would it have been worth it?



I could go on a rant about the silliness of the London trial. The one sentence question version is: Who starts work after 9am and is done before 5pm?Answer: Not many.


There is always an opportunity. It is whether that opportunity is feasible. That is why I asked whether even going to Pembroke would be worth it. I feel what should happen is GO should start running commuter buses.That should be something the area around Ottawa already has.

I'm not sure what I don't get; the line of logic or the grammar. The ROW to Pembroke is no longer there. Period. This negates any kind of trial run of anything.

Whether something, whatever that is, "would have been worth it" is now irrelevant. Other than some kind of historical analysis, I'm missing the point of looking at something "how it was before it was ripped up.