G&M on the "Madrid Miracle"

[Second_in_pie]

What are those other things we're investing in? Quite honestly I wonder what Canada has to show for its relatively extreme wealth. Our infrastructure is quite frankly, and this is putting it lightly, pathetic, our cities are crumbling, our healthcare and education is decent but nothing to write home about; yet we're touted as a highly developed, significantly wealthy, country.

In fact we're one of, if not the, richest countries per capita. And we have nothing notable, other than good healthcare. But somehow, we spend less on Healthcare as part of our GDP than Britain, France and the US. So what's going on? Where does that money go?!

 

[BobBob]

Cars, vacations, inflating housing prices?

 

[Filip]

Cars, vacations, inflating housing prices?

I think we're talking about government spending... Where does Ottawa spend that money? I know we scream bloody murder when Ottawa throws half a billion around, but in Europe they throw billions upon billions of EUROS and nobody's the wiser.

 

[kettal]

In fact we're one of, if not the, richest countries per capita. And we have nothing notable, other than good healthcare. But somehow, we spend less on Healthcare as part of our GDP than Britain, France and the US. So what's going on? Where does that money go?!

Do you understand that being a wealthy country means everything is more expensive? China can build massive infrastructure because they have tradespeople who are willing to work for pennies. In Canada, people earn a lot more, so the cost of building anything is much more expensive as a result.

Norway is the richest country in the world in terms of wealth, but the average person there cannot afford to eat at a restaurant very often. Why? Because the waiters and chefs are paid very highly and the food is expensive as a result.

Wealth is relative. You can only really be rich if you have enough poor people willing to work for pennies.

 

[Filip]

Do you understand that being a wealthy country means everything is more expensive? China can build massive infrastructure because they have tradespeople who are willing to work for pennies. In Canada, people earn a lot more, so the cost of building anything is much more expensive as a result.

Norway is the richest country in the world in terms of wealth, but the average person there cannot afford to eat at a restaurant very often. Why? Because the waiters and chefs are paid very highly and the food is expensive as a result.

Wealth is relative. You can only really be rich if you have enough poor people willing to work for pennies.

European countries still seem to invest heavily into education, healthcare, infrastructure....... Where does Canada invest? Where does our insane wealth from natural resources come into play? I feel like this country really isn't doing much of anything, just cruising on cruise control for the past 30 years.

Methinks it's time for a PM with vision.

 

[kettal]

Our tax levels are lower than most western Europe. Canada doesn't have the best education subsidy, but it's pretty good.

High-income European countries have the same problem as we do with inflated infrastructure costs. Although they typically outspend us in that department. Spain is not a high income country.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar06/text/html/taxdollar06_-eng.asp

Where does our insane wealth from natural resources come into play?

Depends if you are a shareholder of Imperial Oil...

 

[Second_in_pie]

Methinks it's time for a PM with vision.

Very, very definitely. And it's definitely not Harper. I don't see it in Ignatieff either.

 

[Filip]

My last comment before I go to bed:

I think when we look at the root of most problems affecting Toronto it ends up being Canada itself. A country's leading city almost always gets preferential support from its government because the government realizes its potential winnings from the city's success. A stronger, more efficient Toronto will mean more investment, more jobs; which translates to direct tax revenue for Canada. Yet, in our odd country that doesn't seem to click at all. Also, for the love of God, RAISE taxes! We could raise the GST by 5% and nearly nobody would notice unless they were making a capital purchase like a car.

The public should be educated into realizing that higher taxes does not mean death. It means more money to invest into infrastructure, education, healthcare which means a better life for you. If all political parties could agree on that then there would definitely be no end to Canada's infinite potential.

Another forumer here was right; this isn't Toronto's choice, or Toronto's fight, but a choice that has to be made from Ottawa itself. We've seen Ontario see the light and invest heavily into Toronto's success; now if only we could see Ottawa do the same - there would be no end.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

What are those other things we're investing in? Quite honestly I wonder what Canada has to show for its relatively extreme wealth. Our infrastructure is quite frankly, and this is putting it lightly, pathetic, our cities are crumbling, our healthcare and education is decent but nothing to write home about; yet we're touted as a highly developed, significantly wealthy, country.

my sentiments exactly. We pay more tax than most other countries as well

 

[kettal]

If you've ever tried to phone a government ministry in this country, you know the answer. Thousands of people are employed to answer the phone, tell you you have the wrong department, forward you to another department who will tell you the same thing, about 6 times, before you give up.

I know an American guy who worked in phone support for a manufacturer. He always knew when he was speaking to a Canadian because Canadians always ask several times to make sure they had the right department when he answered the phone.

 

[Northern Magus]

We pay more tax than most other countries as well

In saying "most other countries" are you comparing tax levels in Canada to (a) only other G8/G20 nations, or (b) all other nations including developing countries like Zambia, Turkmenistan, Bhutan, and Tuvalu?

If the answer is (b), then it seems to me that we should naturally be paying more tax than most others, and basing any criticism upon their levels of taxation is an irrelevant thesis.

 

[rbt]

If you've ever tried to phone a government ministry in this country, you know the answer. Thousands of people are employed to answer the phone, tell you you have the wrong department, forward you to another department who will tell you the same thing, about 6 times, before you give up.

Our privacy laws don't help here. Since department X cannot know details that department Y needs to, it becomes impossible to provide a 311 type service or consolidate to a single frontend.

A single person cannot legally answer all of the questions.

That said, we could do a much better job in having an operator direct you to the right place. I am really impressed with Toronto's 311 service and there are still kinks to work out.

 

[Northern Magus]

The public should be educated into realizing that higher taxes does not mean death. It means more money to invest into infrastructure, education, healthcare which means a better life for you. If all political parties could agree on that then there would definitely be no end to Canada's infinite potential.

We've seen Ontario see the light and invest heavily into Toronto's success; now if only we could see Ottawa do the same - there would be no end.

Thank Ralph Klein and Mike Harris, the first tax demonizing premiers in Canada, and their federal acolytes in the Reform-Conservative party. Their combined tag-team helped shift mainstream attitudes towards taxation, and clearly scared the hell out of too many progressives.

Now that there's been a faux-Republican prime minister with a cabinet full of neo-cons for 4 years, you can pretty much forget about tax levels even staying the same, since their abiding fixation is quite arguably the asphyxiation of the federal government's ability to invest in and improve the country and its people. Stephen Harper appears to have spent the vast majority of his adult life advocating this.

But governments come and go. What remains are our infrastructure, social and economic needs. And you're right: they can only be properly addressed by smart investment from tax revenues. The job of making the case for this therefore falls not just to our political and business elites, but to everyone.

 

[Whoaccio]

Our infrastructure problems aren't so awful. There are a few countries like Japan which really make a point of investing heavily in infrastructure as an economic strategy but it's been pretty widely seen as a failure compared to investment in social welfare through higher personal transfers and lower taxes. That's where most our spending, one way or another, goes and it's not a terrible idea. Madrid less figured out how to get oodles of money (in total there not really spending anything more than us) than how to spend their money better.

Also, it's worth pointing out, some European countries are substantially richer than us. Depends on how you count it, but in general countries like Ireland, Norway, Switzerland & Denmark have substantially higher per capita wealth and hence a greater ability to fund projects than us. They also, generally, have smaller countries which allows more concentrated investment.

 

[Filip]

Our infrastructure problems aren't so awful. There are a few countries like Japan which really make a point of investing heavily in infrastructure as an economic strategy but it's been pretty widely seen as a failure compared to investment in social welfare through higher personal transfers and lower taxes. That's where most our spending, one way or another, goes and it's not a terrible idea. Madrid less figured out how to get oodles of money (in total there not really spending anything more than us) than how to spend their money better.

Also, it's worth pointing out, some European countries are substantially richer than us. Depends on how you count it, but in general countries like Ireland, Norway, Switzerland & Denmark have substantially higher per capita wealth and hence a greater ability to fund projects than us. They also, generally, have smaller countries which allows more concentrated investment.

Our infrastructure problems are awful! We don't even have an electrified railway. I've made a point to mention Yugoslavia (!!!) did this in the late 50s. We're using diesel-fume belching trains that look like they belong in India with people hanging over the sides.

Too bad nobody in power realizes the immediate health benefits of electrifying... Not to mention saving on fuel, faster deceleration, acceleration, cheaper maintenance...