buildup
Senior Member
Sadly it doesn't work that way - otherwise I'd support the idea. If it comes out of police budget one way or another its passed along as a tax. Or services are cut back. Same with insurance coverage.
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G-20 Summit in Toronto
- Thread starter TO City of Light
- Start date
Red October
Senior Member
Now you know how I feel about the "hurr durrrrrr 1984 durr" anti-police thread.
Thank you buildup and Mississauga Slim, that's my exact mentality. Why should these professional shit-disturbers get any money from us when they came here looking for trouble? They should be charged for vandalism, arson, disturbing of the peace, and other crimes they have committed on more than one occasion, and yet they're getting money for their bullshit.
I oppose the whole "dyke" claim and sexual assault (if that even happened, these people are pretty good at lying too), but when you're looking for trouble you can't complain when you get it.
AKS
Senior Member
It's not just them. There have been claims of sexual assault issues. In one of the articles, it mentions the police they named wasn't the same name that was recorded who brought them in. That was a discrepancy I don't know what to make of, unless something was "hidden". However, the report said there were female officers nearby. But it was the male who frisked them. I don't know why they didn't call over the female to frisk them instead. You realize there are male and female differences. In delicate situations, females are used to handle females and males handle males.
I've also read (unrelated to this case but relates to G20), some of the females who were brought to detention were told to undress by males and called sexual connotations. Same issue, they should have gotten a female to deal with the frisking rather than the male. And why are they degrading females (no matter if they are culprits or not). Would it be okay to swear profanities at the guy who shot at Eaton and called him a nigger?
I also have problems with the handling of G20 where they placed females and males in the same detention area. And for safety as claimed, there are no doors on washrooms in the detention area. Females and males should have been separated. This isn't a show for the males to see the females go pee. That's why females and males have separate washrooms everywhere. People were treated like criminals. It's uncivilized. If they were criminals, why would the court let almost everyone go? The court should have put every single one of them in jail.
jn_12
Senior Member
Some of you are far too preoccupied with the dollar amount. The point of the lawsuit is to bring more attention to the issue of police brutality and misuse of power. They aren't going after the police to try to get rich and anyone who would be so simple-minded to think that has never interacted with people who regularly protest. I also don't think you can pin an accurate dollar amount on the value of having your rights as a Canadian taken from you. If anything, those rights are priceless and as such 1.4million dollars is nothing. Furthermore, lawsuits like this are meant to deter these things from ever happening again. Some people seem to only understand impacts when they're financial (we have a mayor who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing), and therefore the goal is to ensure that with $1.4million missing from someone's budget that it will knock some sense into those with power to make sure this never happens again.
The G20 was Toronto, Ontario and Canada at its worst, and while I don't think anyone would ever condone violent protests or vandalism, no one should be alright with police stooping even lower.
The G20 was Toronto, Ontario and Canada at its worst, and while I don't think anyone would ever condone violent protests or vandalism, no one should be alright with police stooping even lower.
buildup
Senior Member
Its interesting how only the police are accountable, they are required to foresee every eventuality. Accomodations for the protestors being one of them. I have heard complaints ranging from the bland bread and cheese sandwiches (God's honest truth), only 3 glasses fo water in 24 hours, not enough blankets to deal with excessive air conditioning, no bathroom doors, mean words...basically equivalent to an uncomfortable camping trip.
Please spare me the "priceless" - we put prices on everything. If I offered you $1 million today to put up with 24 hours of mild discomfort and some minor rudeness - you would accept the price. I would save you the humiliation of testing your lower boundries.
Freedom DOES have a price - sadly. Would you take $50,000 from your account today to buy the freedom of one imprisioned Syrian? Dont respond that you dont HAVE the $50,000 - because that is exactly the point. What would the average automobile cost to manufacture if we were not willing to accept 30,000 US highway fatalities. Such cars would cost $5,000,000 each. Since we cant afford that we accept highway deaths.
Everything has a price, otherwise we would already have everything.
nfitz
Superstar
You seem to forget that members of the Toronto Police force are pretty good at lying too. It's been proven over and over again in court.
If any private organization had as many of their member found guilty as the police do, they'd be referred to as an organized criminal group.
jn_12
Senior Member
The police knew they would be detaining individuals. It would be naive to think that $1billion worth of security installations wouldn't include provisions for detentions. As such, people should have some expectations that certain necessities are met. And the fact is what people went through was much worse than simply bland sandwiches. Particularly since we live in Canada, and these were Canadian citizens. Our own were treated like cattle, and you should be angry about that. The other fact is that a lot of people detained were innocent bystanders or peaceful protestors. You or I could have easily been one of those people detained if we happened to be doing something legal at the wrong place at the wrong time. Nevermind the fact that the "law" that the police used to detain people (many of which were bystanders) never actually existed. Re-hashing all of this two years later is rather troubling and I still can't believe such an event happened here. If you honestly feel that this was nothing more than a rainy weekend at a campground, then you're delusional.
And the other thing is, yes, police should be held more accountable than you or I. We should be holding the state to the highest standards because they're the one's in power who we expect to promote our rights, not squash them. We elect these people to protect our well-being. The police should never be our enemy, yet that weekend they were. You will always have people commit crimes, but the state as an entity should know better and should act in our best interest. The state shouldn't be the criminal.
I don't know where you're pulling these numbers from or what something like the cost of an automobile has to do with something like the Charter, but it seems like a strawman at best. We should never be bought out of our rights and freedoms and I cannot believe that if the government offered you money to strip you of your charter rights that you would accept it. If you did, you really don't understand the world we live in and what something like the Charter means to Canadians.
To answer your question, I wouldn't take $1million to be kettled, rounded up and detained. I wouldn't take a kick or a baton from an officer for that price or any price. It's about principles and if you lack those, then it says a lot about the argument you're putting up.
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voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
I think I agree with your other sentiments, but this one I have to question. I don't think people such as Buildup (i.e. the reflexively pro-police, or "barrel-suckers", as the police call them) lack principles, it's just that their principles are different. As I have said elsewhere, taken at face value they are apparently unable to comprehend the existence of abuse of authority. Such willful blindness merits psychological study, but to say it is unprincipled is, I think, incorrect. How is "The police can do no wrong" not a principle?
Of course, it could also be true that they're just trolls or paid police shills. We'll never really know for certain. Anecdotally, I have met many people who are genuine barrel-suckers, so I know they exist.
jn_12
Senior Member
You're right. I shouldn't assume that people hold their rights as a citizen in high regard. It's sad, but the best we can do is open people's eyes and hope for the best.
Hell, I'm not pro or anti-police. I just don't know how anyone can look at that weekend and think that it wasn't one of the most disgusting moments in recent Canadian history.
buildup
Senior Member
Thanks Vox, I appreciate the support. My issue was with the Tiananmen Square - like hysteria. I cannot get my head around the fact 5,000 rampaging cops somehow failed to injure anyone.
If you're unhappy about what happened that week dont just blame police, blame Black Block despite the fact their goals were frustrated, blame marchers such as perhaps yourself who showed up hoping for a show, and blame countless photographers egging things on.
Voicing dissent means more than showing up for the big summer events. We'd be better off with more frequent, smaller, thoughtful expressions of protest rather than these WoodStock events.
If you're unhappy about what happened that week dont just blame police, blame Black Block despite the fact their goals were frustrated, blame marchers such as perhaps yourself who showed up hoping for a show, and blame countless photographers egging things on.
Voicing dissent means more than showing up for the big summer events. We'd be better off with more frequent, smaller, thoughtful expressions of protest rather than these WoodStock events.
nfitz
Superstar
You seem ignorant of history. Many were killed in Tiananmen Square!
Or was there an event in Toronto when there was 5,000 rampaging cops that you are aware of, but no one else is?
jn_12
Senior Member
You've got to be kidding right? I don't even know where to begin, but I seriously hope that you understand that the government doesn't need to commit a Tiananman Square-like event for people to be mad. If that's your bar, then we're in a lot of trouble as a country.
Anyways, I have already suggested that groups that promote violence to get their voice across should not be condoned. People will always act in illegal ways whether its during a protest or simply in our everyday life. It is the police and the state's job to ensure that they abide by the standards set out for them (as in our charter rights and various rights stated in law). There are no exceptions here. If someone spits in a cops face, the cop cannot simply ignore laws. They have to rise above it and be the better entity in this situation. I understand that's hard for you to accept, but this is fact. If you don't agree with that then you simply do not understand the importance of laws such as the Charter.
Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that it wasn't just a tiny group of "Black block" who were getting detained. Many (and I cannot emphasize this point enough) innocent people were deemed criminals without reason and detained using laws that never existed and treated improperly. Does that not worry you?
I also would suggest that people can and should protest whenever they feel it is appropriate. Who are you to dictate when is the right occasion to protest? Whether it is a large event, or a small one, if there's a reason for people to stand in protest, then they should do it. I'd also suggest that people who are socially conscious in a way that they are motivated to protest at these big events also protest at smaller events and deal with issues on a local basis. As someone who attended Trent University (a school considered Canada's Berkeley) I saw protests and petitions and information sessions on almost a daily basis for issues both local and global. The fact is that no matter the size or scale, people have the right to be engaged and to make their voice heard.
buildup
Senior Member
jn_12
That is a good argument. I can't disagree with your points.
That is a good argument. I can't disagree with your points.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Many would consider paying in order to remove our Charter rights. Canada did quite fine for the first 115 years and people did have rights then too - they also had some responsibilities (i.e. to be peaceful, civilized, etc.).
buildup
Senior Member
"I love the irony.
A thread which has debated human rights, freedom of expression has been Closed by an un-named Moderator"
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" It looks like the thread closure was in error (human error or electronic error, I'm not sure).
It has been unlocked and merged with the primary G20 thread (where the discussion should have occurred in the first place).
The authorities at UT have acknowledged that mistakes were made."
It was completely my fault starting a new thread. However, I feel violated from the experience of being temporarily silenced. I am considering suing you, because there's a principle involved.
A thread which has debated human rights, freedom of expression has been Closed by an un-named Moderator"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" It looks like the thread closure was in error (human error or electronic error, I'm not sure).
It has been unlocked and merged with the primary G20 thread (where the discussion should have occurred in the first place).
The authorities at UT have acknowledged that mistakes were made."
It was completely my fault starting a new thread. However, I feel violated from the experience of being temporarily silenced. I am considering suing you, because there's a principle involved.